Dole payments should have been cut this week, not increased

Brendan Burgess

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I had an article in yesterday's Sunday Independent

Dole payments should be cut, not increased

Last week the dole was increased by €5. Cue the usual howls of protests from the poverty lobby deploring the paltriness of this increase.

But let's look at a few facts.

The dole in the Republic of Ireland is €193 per week for a single person. The dole in Northern Ireland is the equivalent of €90. That is not a typo. An unemployed person in Dundalk is getting twice the dole than his cousin who lives 14 miles away in Newry. They have the same access to free healthcare, free education and roughly the same housing, although in the Republic, a person on the dole is expected to contribute €30 a week towards their housing costs.

One might assume that the hard-pressed worker in the Republic pays much higher PRSI than a worker in the North and so maybe they deserve to get a higher dole when they lose their job? Well one would be wrong to assume that. An employee in the Republic earning €40,000 pays €1,600 a year in PRSI, whereas an employee in the North pays the equivalent of €3,700!

So, a worker in Dundalk pays half the level of Social Insurance than his cousin in Newry, yet, when he loses his job, he gets twice the dole. This is completely unjustifiable and completely unsustainable.

Despite the very low levels of tax and PRSI on low-paid employees in Ireland, it's simply not worth their while to get a job. With almost-free housing, free health care and extraordinarily generous levels of dole, they would lose money by going out to work, especially if they can supplement their dole through working in the black economy.

Is it any wonder that we have twice the number of people living in jobless households than the rest of the EU?

If you have worked continuously for 30 years and have paid PRSI for 30 years you will get €193 per week dole - the exact same as someone who has sat at home watching daytime TV for 30 years. Despite the fact that it is called "pay-related social insurance", it is neither pay related nor insurance in any normal understanding of the word. You get no extra dole for contributing to the social insurance fund. And in retirement, a person who has paid PRSI all their lives gets €10 a week more than someone who has lived on welfare all their life.

So what is to be done to bring a bit of sense and fairness into the system? The level of non-contributory dole and pension must be cut, and cut significantly. If people choose not to work, then they must be poorer than people who get out of bed in the morning and go to work and contribute to society.

A person who works for years and pays PRSI should get a much higher pension that someone who has been on the dole all their life. The non-contributory social welfare pension also needs to be reduced from its current level. For example, it's €377 for a couple in the Republic compared to €309 in the North.

One way to pull all this together would be to put each person's PRSI contributions into an account in their own name. If they work for many years and then lose their job, instead of getting social welfare, they would be drawing down their own money from their own account. When they retire, a person with more money in their account, would get a higher pension than someone with less money or no money in their account. Again, they would not be getting a social welfare pension. Instead, they would be withdrawing money from their own account.

Under such a system, someone would always be better off working than on the dole. When they are working, they would be adding to their account and building up their pension pot. When they are unemployed, they would be depleting their account i.e. spending their own money.

This personal account system would have many other advantages. Self-employed people working in cash businesses who hide their income to avoid paying tax would have very little in their account on retirement and so would get a much lower pension than a PAYE employee who has had no choice but to pay full taxes and PRSI all their working life.

At the moment, workers see PRSI as just another tax. If it were going into an account in their own name, they would resent it less.

In any event the current ridiculously high levels of social welfare are totally unsustainable for the national finances. Everything is going in our favour at present. Our exports are booming. Our tourism is booming. We have artificially high Corporation Tax receipts due to US multinationals diverting their earnings through Ireland. And although our national debt is huge, the cost of servicing it is low because interest rates are so low. Despite all this, we are taking less in tax than we are spending to run the country. When interest rates rise, when Britain leaves the EU and when Trump demands that US companies pay tax to the US government rather than to the Irish government, we will be in trouble. We should fix this now under our own control, rather than have it fixed for us under another bailout.

Brendan Burgess is a consumer campaigner and founder of the consumer forum Askaboutmoney.com

Sunday Independent
 
I agree with a lot of what you say Brendan. Dole payments are far too high in this country (cost of living is higher too though) and thus reduces the incentive to work for some. Our taxation system is all over the place too. We want to have all the benefits we see in other European countries but unlike our European countries, we don't want to pay for the benefits. We just want to fund it from the money tree.

Where I disagree is the personal insurance fund. This is self insurance. The whole idea behind insurance is the pooled amount pays for those who have to claim. The same with car or house insurance. The collective fund pays for a claim as an individual couldn't save enough to pay for the rebuild of his house if it burnt down.

There are lots in society who will need to claim more often than others. They are likely to be the unskilled worker. They need to be protected more than the highly qualified worker. As a society, we all should contribute to help those less fortunate.

As with all these things, it is not a black and white issue. There are a whole load of socioeconomic factors to be taken into consideration. Society as a whole seems to fail people who are born into poverty and seem quite happy to leave them there.

Steven
http://www.bluewaterfp.ie (www.bluewaterfp.ie)
 
Well thought out article.

There is an argument that most of those who get the dole spend all of it on goods and services anyway thus their money goes straight back into the economy in any case. Therefore the real cost to the economy is much lower.
 
PRSI A Stamp paid up until Budget 2011 was Higher close to The UK rate. It was lowered to take account of the USC .
 
From a quick read , the one thing that leaps off the page is the statement that the dole is €193 for a single person.
It is correct in that the dole for a single person over 26 is €193 per week however that amount does not apply to the large proportion of unemployed aged under 26 who benefit as follows:
Aged 18 -24 €102.70 per week
Aged 25 - €148.70 per week.
Surely , Brendan you should have referred to this in your article for the sake of balance ?
 
PRSI A Stamp paid up until Budget 2011 was Higher close to The UK rate. It was lowered to take account of the USC .

PRSI ee has been 4% in Ireland for many, many years.

PRSI was not reduced to take account of USC.

In the UK, NI is 12%.


The Health levy and the Income levy were merged into the USC.
 
Most other countries have generous short-term unemployment insurance, but much less generous long-term social assistance.

We are the opposite.

We give LT claimants more, as they receive the Xmas bonus.

My proposal: increase JSB, abolish JSA, and replace it with an offer of paid work.
 
From a quick read , the one thing that leaps off the page is the statement that the dole is €193 for a single person.
It is correct in that the dole for a single person over 26 is €193 per week however that amount does not apply to the large proportion of unemployed aged under 26 who benefit as follows:
Aged 18 -24 €102.70 per week
Aged 25 - €148.70 per week.
Surely , Brendan you should have referred to this in your article for the sake of balance ?

That's interesting. For someone on the dole at 18 they can rest assured that without lifting a finger their income will rise by almost 50% in 7 years. Nice "work" if you can get it!
 
But from a very low base Firefly :)

However I do think that much of Brendan's argument is undermined by the fact that a significant proportion of unemployed do not receive weekly dole of €193 as stated by him.
 
Protocol
What was the Health levy and the Income Levy spent on.
 
Income levy was a general tax, introduced during the early years of the financial/fiscal crisis.

Health levy was a tax earmarked for healthcare.
 
Like Steven (Barret) I agree with much that is in the article, basically that we have an unsustainable model vulnerable to some very plausible headwinds. But like Steven, I don't see the point of the "PRSI savings account". It may well be that PRSI is a huge misnomer for the current system but an enforced individual savings account is hardly an instrument of "social insurance".
There is an argument that most of those who get the dole spend all of it on goods and services anyway thus their money goes straight back into the economy in any case. Therefore the real cost to the economy is much lower.
I think this is somewhat faux Keynesianism. By this logic we could all be on social welfare, we would all be spending all our income thus sustaining a full economy:rolleyes:
 
"They have the same access to ... roughly the same housing, although in the Republic, a person on the dole is expected to contribute €30 a week towards their housing costs." sez Brendan, which is untrue and misleading.

A person qualifying for social housing is expected to pay the difference between the rent demanded by the private sector landlord and the locally approved HAP from the local authority or SW housing assistance, PLUS the €30 euro weekly minimum contribution.

For example, (Rent €140 pw) - (HAP €102 pw) = €38 pw payable by SW recipient directly to the landlord (HAP is payable to landlord, SW housing assistance is not) PLUS the €30 minimum contribution to LA or SW. NOTE: €30 is the MINIMUM contribution it may be higher depending on individual circumstances.

So in this simple example, the SW recipient/HAP approved renter pays €68 pw in total, NOT €30 Brendan incorrectly suggest, but more than double that amount

There are of course a few caveats.
  1. SW use their rent assistance as a cap on rent so SW recipients are not allowed to rent houses/apartments above this very low figure. I challenge anyone to find a rental property in Ireland at or below SW caps / HAP
  2. The rental figure is modest and the HAP figure is generous
  3. Find a landlord willing to accept HAP
What's disappointing is the facts about renting are easily verifiable with very little effort here, and by using the various links provided

I have moved the discussion on this to a separate thread:

How much do social welfare recipients contribute to their housing costs?
 
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Ireland badly needs a think tank to advance these ideas. To get them well developed and into the public domain. (I think that if Brendan had run the article here first, S Barrett's point about an individual fund would have helped improve the article.)

Here are three principals for such a group.

Public spending should be efficient, transparent, and those in charge of it accountable at political and civil service level

All items of public spending should require public approval to be renewed at regular intervals. (we need a debate about how much we subsidise farmers)

Taxation should be no higher than needed to fund efficiently those things that individuals cannot fund individually.​

And a fourth negative principal.

Such a group should not allow itself be distracted by non economic issues, (otherwise it would just become an anti abortion forum, see Renua).​
 
@cremeegg I disagree. The last thing we can afford are more talk shops. We have committees and enquiries to beat the band, what have they changed? Stop the talking and take action, starting with the greatest number and the recipients of huge wads of EU and social welfare payments, the farmers

But the basic concept, that we cannot afford out present welfare system, is not widely accepted. When the 4% cap on rent increases in rent pressure zones, was proposed the general reaction was, why not everywhere.
 
the large proportion of unemployed aged under 26 who benefit as follows:
Aged 18 -24 €102.70 per week
Aged 25 - €148.70 per week.

My proposal: increase JSB, abolish JSA, and replace it with an offer of paid work.

Hi Deise

It was an 800 word article, so I did not tease out every issue.

If it were longer, I would ask the question why should anyone under 30 in today's booming economy get means-tested dole at all?

There was a guy on last week's Claire Byrne Show raising this point about the €102.70. He was a young, confident, articulate guy. Why on earth was he depending on you and me for his keep? Even at a minimum wage of €9.25 per hour, he would earn €370 per week. I just don't understand it.

I think that Protocol's suggestion merits consideration. Except why make them an offer of paid work? They can get that in the current economy under their own steam. Of course, if the economy turns down, then reintroduce a basic means-tested social welfare. However, under my overall proposal for an individualised account, people would be drawing down their own money and not depending on the state during periods of unemployment.

Brendan
 
There was a guy on last week's Claire Byrne Show raising this point about the €102.70. He was a young, confident, articulate guy. Why on earth was he depending on you and me for his keep? Even at a minimum wage of €9.25 per hour, he would earn €370 per week. I just don't understand it.

I saw that too. Varadker handled it well. I'm obviously not suited at politics as I would have told him to get a j.o.b.
 
Where I disagree is the personal insurance fund. This is self insurance.

But like Steven, I don't see the point of the "PRSI savings account". It may well be that PRSI is a huge misnomer for the current system but an enforced individual savings account is hardly an instrument of "social insurance".

But, surely by this reasoning, you should abolish private pensions as well? We would all get the same pension in retirement irrespective of what we had contributed.

I insure my house against fire. I don't expect it to happen, but if it does, then all of those who pay premiums will help me get back on my feet.

We are all going to need a pension in retirement. Many people will have periods where they won't be working. We don't need insurance for that. We need savings.
 
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