BUPA leaving Ireland

[jdwex]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Seems they also posted a profit in [broken link removed], [broken link removed], [broken link removed], [broken link removed]and [broken link removed].

What I can't understand is that if the vhi have been saying all along that they need RES money to stay afloat, then how have they managed over the last ten years without it?

They went into a loss AT jULY 2006, I think. The problem is that there existing customer base is getting older, with a sharp increase in health costs for the 50+ age group.
The costs are higher again for the 70+ group, and according to Dan White VHI have 50 times the number of members in this goup as do BUPA

 

[NuMarvel]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

They went into a loss AT jULY 2006, I think. The problem is that there existing customer base is getting older, with a sharp increase in health costs for the 50+ age group.
The costs are higher again for the 70+ group, and according to Dan White VHI have 50 times the number of members in this goup as do BUPA

Surely, though, they had members getting older all the time? It's not as if 2006 was the year all their members "got old"?

 

[nicelives]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Are you sure BUPA would be forced into the red by this? They don’t publish results separately for Ireland which is surprising if it would make such a strong case for them.

Martin O'Rourke gave the Irish account details and the fact that BUPA had to operate in a much more restrictive way than Vhi was for the last ten years. BUPA UK seemed to be subbing the Irish operation for the first few years.
http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/Fri/rte-todaywithpatkenny-tpk.smil

Probably won't happen with any other company coming in until we get a less fickle government, sure it's only 85 years since independence so we can't expect it to be a perfect market yet. I don't know what Mr Ahern was taking about last night in Brussels, sounded like he had been briefed about a different question or was drunk or something.

 

[nicelives]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Surely, though, they had members getting older all the time? It's not as if 2006 was the year all their members "got old"?

The average age for Vhi members is 44 and for BUPA it was 38, so with Vhi taking a hell of a lot more income than the age difference, it really comes down to inefficiencies. With Vhi's higher numbers of staff, higher unionisation/wages, much more costly offices in the centre of the capital and more generous deals to the hospitals and taxi transfers, I'm not surprised they can't compete.

 

[jdwex]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

The average age for Vhi members is 44 and for BUPA it was 38, so with Vhi taking a hell of a lot more income than the age difference, it really comes down to inefficiencies. With Vhi's higher numbers of staff, higher unionisation/wages, much more costly offices in the centre of the capital and more generous deals to the hospitals and taxi transfers, I'm not surprised they can't compete.

The thing is that vhis costs as a %of revenue are within sector norms at 7.5% - they can runas a high as 12 % in some companies.

The average age doesn'ty tell us an awful lot (and Sean Barrett knows this well), what is important is the relative proportions of the 60+ in each company as a proportion of their subscriber base.

 

[Slash]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

In order to understand this thing, we need to look at who will benefit from the exit of BUPA from the Irish market. Two entities will benefit from the extra business that will come their way: 1) VHI, and 2) VIVAS. No need to say anymore about VHI, because many people have given their opinion about that company.

VIVAS is worth a closer look. VIVAS is backed by AIB Bank and by IIU, the investment vehicle of Demot Desmond. DD also happens to be a major fund raiser (i.e. contributor) for Fianna Fail, and one of many people who gave cash to CJH.

Conspiracy theory? Perhaps. But, earlier this year, Michael McDowell stated very forcefully that he would move to close down all private gaming clubs (i.e. casinos) in Dublin. However, someone whispered in his ear that DD owns one of the biggest gaming clubs in Dublin, and told him how the real world works. As a result, McDowell did a little-reported U turn and announced how he would move to "regulate" the private gaming clubs. Government policy should be decided by the government, not by zillionaires.

This may seem far fetched, but......watch this space...............

Oh, yes, and the reaction of our Taoiseach? "Ah, Jayziz, who are ya coddin'? Sure i don't understand all dis insurance stuff at all." Great. Fills me full of confidence.

 

[roland]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

The only people benefiting from BUPA's exit are BUPA themselves. They are a total disgrace. It seems quite clear their strategy was to come in, cream as much money as they could until risk equalisation came in ('cos they knew it would), prolong the inevitable for as long as they could through court cases etc., and then when time was called they ran off in a fake hissy fit with all the huge profits they have made to date. Brilliant.

Sure we can argue about the rights and wrongs of risk equalisation, but BUPA entered the market knowing full well what the position was... they distracted us all by posturing and whining about how 'unfair' it all was, when all they wanted to do was divert attention from the huge profits they kept building up. They relentlessly targeted young members whilst benefiting from a market that 'forced' them to charge those young members a rate that well exceeded the claims they would have to pay. For the 10 years or so that they are here, they've made a relative fortune. Poor BUPA. Poor victims. That was the strategy all along. Nice job. Don't be suckered into thinking they actually really believed that risk equalisation would never come in. Of course, the only victims here are joe public who have paid them this money.

 

[jprender]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

That may be so but this whole situation has arisen due to one thing.

Our government are a group of gob-daws.

 

[scuby]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

The average age for Vhi members is 44 and for BUPA it was 38, so with Vhi taking a hell of a lot more income than the age difference, it really comes down to inefficiencies. With Vhi's higher numbers of staff, higher unionisation/wages, much more costly offices in the centre of the capital and more generous deals to the hospitals and taxi transfers, I'm not surprised they can't compete.

don't they own their own building in the various locations ?
and would a taxi transfer not be cheaper than paying for an ambulance, nurse etc..
Bupa knew when they entered the market Risk Equal was going to come in, and they set up anyway ... the main reason they are cheaper than vhi is probably because they did not charge enough to cover the cost of the money they would have to pay into risk equal...
tough on the staff..... heard bertie on the radio the other day at lunch time, and he was giving out about bupa, would love to have heard the meeting they had with Bupa when they were trying to sort things out.....

 

[NuMarvel]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

The only people benefiting from BUPA's exit are BUPA themselves. They are a total disgrace. It seems quite clear their strategy was to come in, cream as much money as they could until risk equalisation came in ('cos they knew it would), prolong the inevitable for as long as they could through court cases etc., and then when time was called they ran off in a fake hissy fit with all the huge profits they have made to date. Brilliant.

Sure we can argue about the rights and wrongs of risk equalisation, but BUPA entered the market knowing full well what the position was... they distracted us all by posturing and whining about how 'unfair' it all was, when all they wanted to do was divert attention from the huge profits they kept building up. They relentlessly targeted young members whilst benefiting from a market that 'forced' them to charge those young members a rate that well exceeded the claims they would have to pay. For the 10 years or so that they are here, they've made a relative fortune. Poor BUPA. Poor victims. That was the strategy all along. Nice job. Don't be suckered into thinking they actually really believed that risk equalisation would never come in. Of course, the only victims here are joe public who have paid them this money.

Surely we don't actually think an international company would act in such a brazen and cavalier attitude? Especially when that company's raison d'etre is taking care of people's health? It seems a bit silly that any company would take that kind of chance with people's jobs and people's health....

And, as someone else pointed out, bupa's supposed to be a not for profit organisation. They hardly decided that the irish operation was when they'd change this??

 

[scuby]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

someone was telling me over the weekend that a girl had given in her notice to her job in fermoy a week ago to join Bupa, and now she has no job, and she was not the only one !! surely Bupa knew at that stage they were going to pull out, and why did they give her a false job ?

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

The only people benefiting from BUPA's exit are BUPA themselves. They are a total disgrace. It seems quite clear their strategy was to come in, cream as much money as they could until risk equalisation came in ('cos they knew it would), prolong the inevitable for as long as they could through court cases etc., and then when time was called they ran off in a fake hissy fit with all the huge profits they have made to date. Brilliant.

...Poor BUPA. Poor victims. That was the strategy all along. Nice job. Don't be suckered into thinking they actually really believed that risk equalisation would never come in. Of course, the only victims here are joe public who have paid them this money.

Have you any evidence to support this conspiracy theory? eg Have BUPA done this previously in any other country?

 

[orka]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

It seems quite clear their strategy was to come in, cream as much money as they could until risk equalisation came in ('cos they knew it would), prolong the inevitable for as long as they could through court cases etc., and then when time was called they ran off in a fake hissy fit with all the huge profits they have made to date. Brilliant.

Have you any evidence to support this conspiracy theory? eg Have BUPA done this previously in any other country?

Nothing except the fact that they did come in, cream as much money as they could until RE came in and then when the time came, ran off with their huge profits... (or at least are threatening to)

According to the judge in the most recent case, they made an average underwriting profit of 18% for the past 4 years. I'm not entirely sure how health insurers are capitalised but if it's similar to non-life insurers (which I think it is), this would equate to a return on capital of about 45% per annum for 4 years. That is a pretty decent return.

And, unsurprisingly, the breaking news this morning is that BUPA will consider 'a reasonable proposal' from the government to let them stay in the Irish market - something enabling 'modest returns'. Wonder what they define as 'modest'?

 

[Glenbhoy]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

And, as someone else pointed out, bupa's supposed to be a not for profit organisation. They hardly decided that the irish operation was when they'd change this??

Sarcasm?
Am I correct in thinking that BUPA Ireland had 3 times the profitability that BUPA UK had? I still don't believe they'll go, they're playing poker imo, they'll get some sort of concession from the govt and they'll stay, with both parties being able to save face.
What I would really like to see are their Irish operations accounts for the past 10 yrs and the realistic projections for the next 10, after the risk equalisation payments have been applied.
Finally, does it matter if they're here or not - at least with VHI, profits are essentially re-invested in the health service, so even if they're more inefficient the net benefit to the health service is unlikely to be any worse.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

at least with VHI, profits are essentially re-invested in the health service, so even if they're more inefficient the net benefit to the health service is unlikely to be any worse.

This argument could be used to justify any past or present State monopoly or cost overrun - for example Aer Lingus flights to UK in the 80s, or the vast sums overspent on road projects. I don't think it holds water.

 

[ubiquitous]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Nothing except the fact that they did come in, cream as much money as they could until RE came in and then when the time came, ran off with their huge profits... (or at least are threatening to)

Yes, but have they done this elsewhere? If so, this would support your theory.

 

[orka]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Yes, but have they done this elsewhere? If so, this would support your theory.

If you give me a list of countries where they entered late into a previously monopolistic market with an opportunity to profit excessively from a short-term delay in implementing a mechanism designed to prevent excessive profit taking and market de-stabilisation, then I will be happy to research each of them and let you know whether they've done this before. I would provide the list myself but I don't know of any such country - sorry.

As you know very well, the theory cannot be proved but neither can it be disproved. The weight of evidence is against them though - the marketing, the profits, the attempts to blackmail the government, the non-disclosure of detailed accounts. What is the evidence for the defense - beyond wooly statements from Martin O'Rourke?

 

[NuMarvel]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Finally, does it matter if they're here or not - at least with VHI, profits are essentially re-invested in the health service, so even if they're more inefficient the net benefit to the health service is unlikely to be any worse.

So you think that the lack of competitors is GOOD for people with health insurance?

 

[polaris]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Somebody mentioned it a few pages back but I'll repeat it again; a proportionate transfer of elderly suscribers from VHI to both BUPA and VIVAS is the best solution to this.

It levels the playing field and neither BUPA or VIVAS will then be subsidising VHI's supposed inefficiencies.

 

[scuby]

Re: Bupa leaving Ireland All Fermoy jobs lost

Somebody mentioned it a few pages back but I'll repeat it again; a proportionate transfer of elderly suscribers from VHI to both BUPA and VIVAS is the best solution to this.

It levels the playing field and neither BUPA or VIVAS will then be subsidising VHI's supposed inefficiencies.

so how would you choose who goes or stays with vhi ?