Bank of Ireland Staff- Lost Tracker

Discussion in 'Issues with tracker mortgages' started by Onceagain, Nov 28, 2015.

  1. visigoth

    visigoth Registered User

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    I must say I am at a loss for words when I read the BOI staffers’ complaints that they also lost trackers, like a satirical film almost. One of these 1,800 could be the one who sold me a svr in mid 2008 and explained that trackers and svr are both variables, always vary together although svr reflect the ecb base rate at discretion not immediately as trackers do contractually. Yeah, right.

    This loss of trackers by the BOI people only tells you that when before 2008 all products, fixed, trackers, svrs - moved together in a tight interval - nobody, whether customers, bankers, solicitors, paid any attention and all made commonsensical assumptions what contractual terms implied.

    The situation is so odd if I were not affected I would laugh. It resembles an economics experiment where the price of credit does not reflect the underlying risk and instead is randomly allocated between two groups, with contractual entitlements for life, and without. And since the banks will always overprice svrs to cover their losses, we will never return to the normal pricing of risk or when all rates co-vary together again in a tight interval, for the next 15 years at least when the banks’ trackers books shrink. And who says the hard work pays and luck has nothing to do with success in life. Nah.

    Paraphrasing Sarenco, to be blunt, "contractual right" defeats common sense every time.
     
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  2. Linten

    Linten Registered User

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    I am not basing my argument on contractual rights, rather on consumer protection fundamentals as outlined by CBOI. Where do you read that the 2096 consumers who were returned to Tracker had a contractual right to do so? Everything I have seen in relation to this review (ref. Irish Indo 6/5/11) refers to Central Bank concerns around the need to warn consumers of the cost implications of giving up a Tracker, giving them more information, etc.. This is the comparison that I am drawing between the 2096 and the 1800 staff mortgages vis a viz the level of warning given to staff customers in losing their trackers vs the customers who ultimately had their Trackers returned to them, seemingly on the very basis of this information deficit which was pointed out to BOI by CBOI. This appears to me to be a play on Consumer Protection as espoused by CBOI, rather than any legal or contractual entitlement.
    BOI had already returned many consumers to Tracker rate based on their contractual right.

    PS I have just discovered that the wording of both MFAs issued in Aug 2006 and Jan 2007 is incorrect, in both cases under the 'Acknowledgement and Agreement' section. In the August one its states;
    "in converting the Loan from a fixed rate to Staff Mortgage Rate"...this is incorrect as the conversion was from Tracker to Staff Mortgage Rate..
    In the Jan 2007 one it states; "in converting the Loan from a Fixed rate to the Staff 2 Year Fixed Mortgage Rate"...this is also incorrect as it is converting from the Staff Variable Mortgage Rate....
    Could this cause the MFAs to be considered invalid......get the Tracker back on a technicality!!
     
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  3. Sarenco

    Sarenco Frequent Poster

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    You said yourself that the 2,096 borrowers moved directly from (lifetime) trackers to the fixed rate product. There was nothing in the relevant MFAs to suggest that they wouldn't default back to the tracker on expiry of the fixed rate period.

    The situation in Q3 2008 (where banks were effectively offering cheap fixed rates to borrowers in return for giving up their trackers) was completely different to the situation in August 2006 where bank staff consciously switched from a tracker to a discounted variable rate. With the benefit of hindsight that was a poor financial decision.

    What consumer protection fundamental do you think the bank breached in offering discounted variable rates to staff? What warning exactly should have been given - that the Revenue BIK Reference Rate could change in the future?
     
  4. emeralds

    emeralds Frequent Poster

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    Below is the ECB rates history from 8th March 2006 to 9th July 2008. It is steadily climbing. I am guessing that Bank of Ireland were trying to assist their staff by offering a discounted variable rate not tied to the ECB rate...

    2006
    8 Mar. 2.50
    2006
    15 Jun. 2.75
    2006
    9 Aug. 3.00
    2006
    11 Oct. 3.25
    2006
    13 Dec. 3.50
    2007
    14 Mar. 3.75
    2007
    13 Jun. 4.00
    2008
    9 Jul. 4.25
     
  5. todo

    todo Frequent Poster

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    168
    Everyone here can be certain that Bank of Ireland were aware of exactly what they were doing from beginning to end on this. It shocks me that they would not even look after their own staff. What chance does a customer have when they treat their staff like this.
    This should be a warning to all, to stay away from Bank of Ireland. They treat their staff and customers very badly.
     
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  6. belizebaby

    belizebaby New Member

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    3
    I called this number today and was told that they hope to have the investigation completed by end of 2016. Anyone who had a tracker, including staff, will be looked at and if you haven't been contacted by the end of the year you should follow up.

    As an aside, the original "insite" advertisement for the staff fixed rate clearly stated that at the end of the 2 year period you would automatically revert to the staff tracker ... and then in 2008 they wouldn't honor it, so yes it was misleading and that is what the central bank have asked them to investigate. The IBOA were contacted about the 1800 staff members affected and they told us there was nothing they could do.
     
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  7. Sarenco

    Sarenco Frequent Poster

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    That's very interesting and would appear to conflict with the terms of the MFAs for those staff members that switched to the discounted staff variable rates in 2006 before subsequently fixing. Could you post the exact wording of the advertisement?

    Was there a discounted staff tracker rate in addition to the discounted staff variable rate at some point?
     
  8. Pelican

    Pelican Registered User

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    11
    I have the printout from insite titled ' an update on staff mortgage options'
    The exact wording states 'Bank of Ireland no longer offers customer or staff tracker mortgages with effect from start of business on Friday 10 October 2008'

    Existing Staff mortgage accounts
    Staff 2 year fixed rate : rate currently 3.95%
    Staff who are currently on staff 2 year fixed rate - currently 3.95 % - will roll to ECB + 0.75 % with no BIK implications as per their original signed mortgage agreement at the end of their 2 year fixed period.
    Staff will receive notification 30 days prior to the end of their fixed rate period. This notification will also offer a range of fixed and variable rate products. If you do not respond to this notification, your account will automatically default to the Staff Tracker ECB + 0.75%.
    I also have the letter received on rollover which states
    ' A communication was issued on insite on the 9th of October indicating that the Tracker Mortgage would be available on rollover - this preceded our final assessment of our withdrawal from Tracker Mortgages and represented the most accurate information available at the time. The subsequent assessment of the impact of the decision to remove Tracker mortgages has led to the outcome outlined in this letter. We apologise for any confusion this has caused.'
     
  9. Sarenco

    Sarenco Frequent Poster

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    3,267
    Hi Pelican

    I think we already knew that BOI stopped offering trackers in October 2008.

    However, Belizebaby suggested that the original "insite" advertisement (presumably from 2006 or 2007) for the staff fixed-rate mortgage stated that, at the end of the fixed-rate period, staff would automatically default to the staff tracker.

    Such an advertisement would appear to directly conflict with the terms of the relevant MFAs reproduced elsewhere on this thread and could be highly relevant to this issue.
     
  10. Onceagain

    Onceagain Frequent Poster

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    109
    Thanks for posting that Pelican. It's difficult when you are still staff to do anything when it is your employer, but hopefully more and more staff are coming forward to make our case even stronger now.
    We were wronged and someone has to pay for that, we are due our refunds.
     
  11. MAX01

    MAX01 Registered User

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    31
    Hi Pelican
    Have you sent a copy of that Insite communication to the Central Bank and also Bank of Ireland to be included in their investigations ( just in case that particular memo has disappeared!)
     
  12. Foxy locks

    Foxy locks New Member

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    1
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2016
    Hi Pelican,
    I've just come across this site and have read ur most recent post. I'm in the exact same position as u. Although I still don't know what to do or who to contact. Myself and a number of colleagues have looked everywhere for the information on onsite in relation to the 2 yr fixed staff rate with no luck. They were quick to remove the information. Is it being investigated within the bank at present or do u know?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2016
  13. Onceagain

    Onceagain Frequent Poster

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    109
    Hi FoxyLocks, a good few of us are in regular contact with Padraic Kissane. Have you rang the number within boi to state you want your mortgage to.be part of the central bank review process.I would encourage you and your colleagues to contact Padraic. Message me if you need any further details.
     
  14. mister32

    mister32 Frequent Poster

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  15. Hogmeister55

    Hogmeister55 Registered User

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    I am one of the staff who went from a tracker to the staff variable rate in 2006, then onto the fixed rate in 2007 and not allowed back on to tracker in 2009. A colleague took a similar case to mine to the ombudsman a few years ago but that was rejected although he didn't get a very detailed response why. After that I didn't bother going ahead with my own complaint

    Does anyone know are these cases being looked into again or is it just those that moved from tracker directly to fixed?

    I rang the helpline number above and provided my account details but could not get a straight answer. I was told that IF I was on a tracker it would be included in the review but they would not give me a definitive yes or no that my account was being looked at.
     
  16. MAX01

    MAX01 Registered User

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    I am also one of the 1800 staff who lost their tracker by switching to the staff variable rate in 2006. I took my case to FSO and won it. BOI appealed the decision , but before the case was heard in the High Court, FSO contacted me to state that they were not proceeding with it. Instead, they were going to review my case again with a new team of investigators . 18 months later Bill Prafiska advised me that I had lost my case and ruled against me ! Needless to remark, I was devastated. I was awarded 1000 euro which would not cover the amount of extra money I pay every month on the variable rate. Why would FSO rule against their own Head of Legal Services who found in my favour? It is impossible to get any information from BOI regarding the review , I have heard of only one case where a customer has got their tracker returned. I suggest you write to Deloitte who are signing off on the review, also to Central Bank expressing your disquiet at lack of information given to customers. At this stage of review, the bank must have a pretty good idea as to the number of customers they have to return to trackers.
     
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  17. Hogmeister55

    Hogmeister55 Registered User

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    27
    Thanks MAX01. The FSO overturning their own decisions is a bit worrying did they tell you why?
    My colleague got an extremely vague response that the FSO refused to give any more detail on. He wrote to them but they didn't respond.

    The person on the BOI helpline said I would only be notified if my account was reviewed and that a problem was found. Otherwise I would never hear anything. Do you know who I could in Deloitte to ensure my account is reviewed?
     
  18. todo

    todo Frequent Poster

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    168

    I don't like the sound of this.

    1. The FSO finds in your favour, offering you back your tracker?
    2. BOI appeal the decision.
    3. FSO give in without going to the high court.


    I thought the FSO decision was final and the only way to appeal it was to go through the high court. Now they can't have it every way. If I wanted to appeal the FSO's decision you can be sure I'd be made go to the high court. How was it so easy for BOI to get the decision in your favour squashed.
     
  19. MorgVar

    MorgVar Frequent Poster

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    57
    This is rally bizarre. At this stage BOI are obviously not meeting the obligations as outlined by CB. I thought U B were poor❓ .

    All affected BOI customers should alert and complain to CB by email.

    When you refer to 1 BOI customer being restored is this following the current CB review❓
     
  20. MAX01

    MAX01 Registered User

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    31
    The FSO reviewed my case again and 18 months or so later found against me. They overturned their own legal arguments that had been in my favour in the first instance. I often wondered if the fact that there are 1800 staff members affected, if they found in my favour then they would have had to put back all 1800 staff on trackers and at that stage all the banks were struggling?
    I don't have a name in Deloitte, sent an email outlining my concerns, no response from them. The more customers to contact them, perhaps they might take note and get more involved in the process. Also, write to Central Bank, I have received an acknowledgement from them.
    Yes, the customer who got their tracker returned is part of the review process.