Another abortion referendum?

[T McGibney]

And now we go full circle because you wouldn't have any say in the matter. Not in Ireland anyway.

I frankly don't believe this to be the case. Based on my own and my close family members' experiences, I firmly believe that doctors & consultants do take into account the wishes and preferences of their patients, and do, generally, act in accordance with their wishes and preferences.

Granted this didn't happen in Galway with regard to Savita and Praveen but on the other hand, the hospital seems to have made every mistake in the book in relation to Savita's care and treatment.

I think it would be dangerous to conclude on the basis of her tragic experience that the same sort of bungling is endemic within our maternity health services. On the other hand, if it is, then it clearly isnt the law that is at fault.

 

[orka]

Care to re-read my comments again? What I stated is that there is no such things as a zero risk pregnancy, which you then agreed with.

That's one thing you stated. You also asked Bronte (living in a medically-advanced country in modern times) the following question:

You do realise that by getting pregnant in the first place you have inherently put your risk level above the 1% to 5%?

You are saying with that question that getting pregnant (in a medically-advanced country in modern times) puts your inherent risk of dying from the pregnancy above 1% to 5% (and presumably the doctors save us from our fate to bring the true rate back to the 8 per 100,000). Can you explain your view that the inherent risk level is above 1% to 5% in a medically advanced country in modern times?

 

[bullbars]

And now we go full circle because you wouldn't have any say in the matter. Not in Ireland anyway. And to hell with your husband and other children. They're a complete irrelevance.

What if the expecting mother has no husband or children - does that make her case less relevant?

"To hell with husband, children" etc. what relevance has that? The doctors are duty bound to care for mother and unborn child. No one has ever suggested that the mother be sacrificed just to ensure the child is born. How are you still confused by this?

 

[Bronte]

I am commenting on the points individually as it would be illegible otherwise.

.

From before you know that I find it very difficult to follow you when you dissect me practically word by word. That's my point. AAM is not about that. I don't know why you did it before nor now. It was so bad a couple of months ago I got lost and could not follow you. On a funny note probably it's due brain changes from pregnancy. And yes I do feel my brain changed because of pregnancy.

 

[bullbars]

That's one thing you stated. You also asked Bronte (living in a medically-advanced country in modern times)

And here I was thinking she'd given birth in the middle ages. Was it a delorean or a telephone box used to travel through time?

the following question:You are saying with that question that getting pregnant (in a medically-advanced country in modern times) puts your inherent risk of dying from the pregnancy above 1% to 5% (and presumably the doctors save us from our fate to bring the true rate back to the 8 per 100,000). Can you explain your view that the inherent risk level is above 1% to 5% in a medically advanced country in modern times?

A cursory internet search of "Risks to a woman during Pregnancy" throws up a list of both physical and mental conditions that can arise during and after pregnancy. Can some of these result in death? Yes of course, but that is why we (I assume we are talking about modern times now) get continual pre and post pregnancy medical check ups and care.

 

[Bronte]

, I firmly believe that doctors & consultants do take into account the wishes and preferences of their patients, and do, generally, act in accordance with their wishes and preferences.

.

I believe this too in general. Except in cases of mother's needing abortions. Forget Savita for a moment. What do you think actually happens to women who have say a X% risk in pregnancy in Ireland ?

(The actual percentage amount isn't relevant in general to the answer.)

 

[Bronte]

What if the expecting mother has no husband or children - does that make her case less relevant?

"To hell with husband, children" etc. what relevance has that?

The point I'm making and that which you are missing is that a women with zero kids might think a high risk is ok. A women who already had kids might consider that the needs of those children did not warrant any risk.

As it is women have no right to decide on an actual abortion. But in situations where they want to continue an at risk pregnancy, say a low risk, but a real and substantial risk, then the mother can continue with the pregnancy. Women do this all them time. Because unbelievable we actually want to have babies and be mothers. And would put our lives on the line to have them and for them (and men would too, the for them part)

 

[orka]

So they wait until there is absolutely no way they can be retrospectively challenged that there was indeed a real and substantial risk. And most of the time, waiting will be fine.

Is this based on anything other than guessing to suit a point of view?

Which bit are you asking about? That the waiting will be fine? Or that they wait so they won't be retrospectively challenged?
My most recent views are based on reading reports of the Savita inquest, reports of the recent Oireachtas hearings on abortion. No doctor will say that they are clear when they can and cannot perform an abortion even with a sick woman and an unviable foetus. There are grey areas and no clear guidelines on what threshold must be met to ensure that they will not face prosecution. Who suffers if the unviable foetus is removed from the woman too soon in the eyes of the law? Only the doctor. That is not a fair situation to put doctors in which is why they need greater clarity and legal protection.

 

[orka]

And here I was thinking she'd given birth in the middle ages.

Wow, stunningly original comeback - where do you get them?

Bronte presumably got pregnant in a medically advanced country in modern times, not the middle ages...

 

[orka]

A cursory internet search of "Risks to a woman during Pregnancy" ...

Once more with feeling, where does your view come from that there is more than 1% to 5% inherent risk of death in getting pregnant?

 

[T McGibney]

I believe this too in general. Except in cases of mother's needing abortions.

Have you a basis for your belief that doctors shelve their normal patient consultation practices in the case of women with pregnancy complications?

Note that many, if not most, consultants and gynecologists go out of their way to comply with women's preferences in relation to childbirth, specifically where caesarean sections are requested, even to the point that some doctors and hospitals have attracted third party criticism for being too accommodating in this regard.

It's hard to rationalise how and why these brave & highly experienced professionals suddenly become shrinking violets when confronted by decisions that involve the premature termination of a pregnancy in order to safeguard the mother's life.

 

[Sunny]

Have you a basis for your belief that doctors shelve their normal patient consultation practices in the case of women with pregnancy complications?

Note that many, if not most, consultants and gynecologists go out of their way to comply with women's preferences in relation to childbirth, specifically where caesarean sections are requested, even to the point that some doctors and hospitals have attracted third party criticism for being too accommodating in this regard.

It's hard to rationalise how and why these brave & highly experienced professionals suddenly become shrinking violets when confronted by decisions that involve the premature termination of a pregnancy in order to safeguard the mother's life.

They don't face jail for doing a c-section. They might face jail as soon as the issue of terminating a pregnancy comes into play so you can't really compare the two can you? Also no consultant will do a c-section without medical reason. Presume you can back up your claim that they offer them on request.

This thread has reached the usual conclusion whenever this topic is discussed. People will never change their minds so don't know why the thread is being kept alive.

 

[orka]

People will never change their minds so don't know why the thread is being kept alive.

People who feel strongly enough to post are unlikely to change their minds but that doesn't mean that the broader readership of the thread can't be influenced/persuaded in any way. People can and do change their minds on abortion - the gradual move towards acceptance in Ireland is caused mainly by demographics but also by older people understanding the issue better when it is presented independently and rationally rather than as part of a doctrine that must be obeyed. It's easy to be anti-abortion when the issue is presented as wanton hussies killing cuddly perfect babies because they couldn't keep their legs together; it becomes a different issue when you can imagine your own daughter/sister/friend dying because an unviable foetus was still alive but the mother wasn't yet sick enough to have it removed. I know my own father was very anti-abortion for years but he is more pro-wife and pro-daughter and he accepts now that abortion is sometimes necessary.

 

[celebtastic]

People who feel strongly enough to post are unlikely to change their minds but that doesn't mean that the broader readership of the thread can't be influenced/persuaded in any way. People can and do change their minds on abortion - the gradual move towards acceptance in Ireland is caused mainly by demographics but also by older people understanding the issue better when it is presented independently and rationally rather than as part of a doctrine that must be obeyed. It's easy to be anti-abortion when the issue is presented as wanton hussies killing cuddly perfect babies because they couldn't keep their legs together; it becomes a different issue when you can imagine your own daughter/sister/friend dying because an unviable foetus was still alive but the mother wasn't yet sick enough to have it removed. I know my own father was very anti-abortion for years but he is more pro-wife and pro-daughter and he accepts now that abortion is sometimes necessary.

This I'd agree with

As the church finally loosens its awful grip on Irish society, more folks are wakening up to the reality that the rights of women come well ahead of the rights of foetal tissue.

This is what we have already agreed in the last referendum on abortion. The people have spoken - the RC hierarchy dont like it, and they will kick and scream to drag us back to the situation where women should know their place.

 

[Bronte]

This thread has reached the usual conclusion whenever this topic is discussed. People will never change their minds so don't know why the thread is being kept alive.

I don't believe you're correct on this Sunny. It is about far more than abortion. This story has unprecedented implications for Irish society. There is massive change in the air. Older people have realised they got it wrong before. Younger people didn't realise the dangers they were in and what Irish society stood for and they will not stand for it, they were in a fog and most wonderfully of all men now get it, particularly the older men.

We will look back in history and see this as a wonderful turning point in our history. A major moment in time.

And the other side know it, and they don't know what to do about it, the tactics they used the last time will not work now. They are also exposed as never before, the Breda O' Brien's, the David Quinn's and Patricia Casey's and the others that have over the last few months who have sought to defend the indefensible. Each time they get an outing on radio or TV they make things worse for themselves and dig the hole a little deeper.

 

[Bronte]

There are a plethora of conditions both physical and mental that go hand in hand with pregnancy. I was addressing Bronte's insistence on a zero risk pregnancy.

Yes there are many implications both physical and mental that occur during pregnancy. And I have certainly not insisted on any post on a zero risk pregnancy. As you don't seem to get it I'll repeat, where there is a risk that can be dealt with by a termination, than a mother should be allowed in consultation with her doctor to take the best course of action for her. Currently Irish women do not have that choice. They cannot be consulted. How is that best medical practice in a modern world.

BTW I gave birth in a top Catholic hospital that carries out abortions where necessary, but there would be no question of hanging around waiting until I were near 1% chance of death never mind 51%. Any doctor that did that here would be sacked and probably jailed.

 

[Brendan Burgess]

That's all folks!