Cancer risk re old railway sleepers?

Anyone else heard this?, I take it that its to do with the preservative treatments. Apparently they are banned in some countries, according to the guy who told me.

Having spent 1k on them recently this was not what I wanted to hear but, in reality, I'd imagine the risk must be negligible, I aint exactly eating my dinner off them.

Re: Cancer risk re old railway sleepers??

Hi Betsy, haven't heard it myself, but there is a keypost on railway sleepers in this section and some posters make mention of it. There's a good bit of discussion on them there.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com//showthread.php?t=2782

Re: Cancer risk re old railway sleepers??

Excuse the lengthy extract:

Information on restrictions on Creosote​

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As and from June 30th 2003, new Regulations banning the sale of the wood preservative creosote to consumers take effect. This action stems from the findings of an EU scientific committee which concluded from a recent study that creosote has a greater potential to cause cancer than was previously thought. The ban will also apply to wood treated with creosote. C reosote may still be used for industrial applications, eg. railway sleepers, telegraph poles, fencing, but with tougher restrictions on its composition and how it is applied.

Commission Directive 2001/90/EC takes effect on June 30th 2003. This Directive was recently transposed into Irish Law under the European Communities (Dangerous Substanc es and Preparations) (Marketing and Use) Regulations 2003. A copy of the restriction is attached for information.

Creosote is commonly used as a wood preservative. Most use of creosote is in the industrial impregnation of timber products such as railway sleepers and telegraph poles, although a significant proportion is used by private individuals for brush application to fences, etc. Creosote itself is a mixture of substances obtained from the distillation of coal tar and is classified as carcinogenic on the basis of some of those substances (eg. benzo-a-pyrene (BaP)). On the initiative of the European Commission, a study undertaken by the Fraunhofer Institute (Hanover, Germany)1 and accepted by the Scientific Committee on Toxicity, Ecotoxicity and the Environment2, concluded that creosote has a greater potential to cause cancer than was previously thoug ht. In effect, creosote is not allowed to be used in the treatment of wood, though a number of specific derogations are allowed.

Creosote treatment of wood can only be undertaken in industrial installations where the relevant worker protection and environmental regulations apply. Such wood can only be marke ted for professional and industrial use, eg. railway sleepers, telephone and electricity poles, commercial fencing, agricultural purposes (stake supports for trees). Creosote can be re-applied to wo od previously treated with creosote, but this can only be done by professional users.

Creosote cannot be sold to consumers, under any circumstances.

Creosote that is marketed for professional use must have a benzo-a-pyrene content of less than 0.005% by mass. This is a ten-fold reduction in benzo-a-pyrene content from that pre viously allowed. It may only be sold in containers with a capacity of greater than or equal to 20 litres, and must carry the appropriate hazard labelling in addition to a clear statement saying "For use in industrial installations or professional treatment only".

Wood treated with creosote may not be used inside buildings, in toys, in playgrounds, in parks/gardens/leisure facilities where risk of skin contact is high, in the manufacture of garden furniture (eg. picnic tables), in containers for growing purposes, in any packaging that could contaminate raw materials/intermediates/finished products intended for human or animal consumptio n.

I have creosote treated timbers, including sleeprs in my own garden and I am not worried about any risk- the risk derives from long term and regular exposure to creosote through skin contact. This is generally not a problem with sleepers unless they are used as picnic tables or the like.

I have heard that you are not to put sleepers next to where you are planting fruit or veg. I suppose the reason is the creosote will soak into the soil and be absorbed by the plants. For use as borders around all other plants I am sure it's fine. Out of interest what did you build with €1k of sleepers?

It took about 50 of them to go all around lawn (house in the sticks - space not a problem - apart from maintenance ....) so that was my €1k.

I suppose if I was to recoat them (or at least the top of them) with an approved wood preservative it might provide a barrier against the previous treatments applied to the wood - to be sure to be sure like !

A wood preservative won't block creosote vapour from evaporating nor will it stop creosote from leaching. The vapour (you know the smell) of creosote is already dangerous.
Railway sleepers are treated every two years (in some countrys/regions every year) with herbicides to keep the railway line free from growth that could ignite by sparks from the train's contact with the rail or by a simple cigarette butt. These types of herbicides are not allowed in gardens. "Agent Orange" - does that sound a bell? Well, the herbicide used on railway sleepers is similar to the Vietnam defoliant. They leach.
Railway sleepers are considered hazardous waste, that's the reason why nearly no waste incinerator accepts them. So they are sold to Ireland.....where people buy first and then ask questions. But under the consumer laws/legislation any potential danger of a sold good has to be told to the consumer.....so just hand them back if the company hasn't done so. Missing or faulty advice is a reason to step back from the sales contract.
And they're treated with humane facies, coming from countrys where TBC and other nasty deseases are not controlled, namely Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa.

Unless the last train passed over your railway sleeper a day or two ago, there probably is no need to worry about disease. (Especially in light of the Agent Orange).

Not to take away from your argument too much though...

TBC bacterias will survive for month, up to a year, in crevices. So do many other phatogenes. Has someone done any research on that microbiological problem?

I’ve been reading these posts about railway sleepers with interest and decided to give my tuppence worth. Sleepers can indeed be contaminated and toxic but it is possible to buy them new from some timber merchants. They can be more expensive and are likely be pressure treated with ACZA (ammoniacal copper zinc arsenate) or ACQ (ammoniacal copper quat) which have replaced the more toxic chemical CCA (chromated copper arsenate). Documented research both in America and the UK has shown that ACZA and ACQ can be safely used to construct vegetable beds. However, for added protection, some gardeners prefer to line the insides of beds with plastic so that roots and soil do not come in contact with the wood. The same technique can be safely used with chemically treated sleepers.
It’s all about risk assessment. I’m sure people mean well when they post scary stuff about cancer and chemical contamination but keep in mind, many people go to their chosen supermarket and purchase vegetables that have been doused in a wide variety of chemicals far more dangerous than the risk from treated wood.

aveeno2005, interesting post. You seem pretty knowledgeable about the subject. I would find it useful if you could, when posting for the first time on such an obscure topic, especially when you are giving a contrary opinion to most other posts, declare if you have an interest (financial/professional in particular) in the topic in question.

If in doubt you would have no problem re selling the sleepers.
If you spend 1k on 50 sleepers that is 20euro a pop, that would be cheap in carlow where ther average around 26 yo yos..

I bought sleepers and then sold them easily.
With kids you have the possibilty of them sitting/walking on them and if it's hot and they are seeping then the stuff is on their hands.

Not worth the risk.

I think the previous comments regarding "risk assessment" are indeed very valid. As I previously posted the greatest risk from creosote and other toxic preservative treatments is from direct skin contact or through inhalation of their vapours (in an industrial environment where spraying equipment was used). Up until the introduction of this new EU legislation creosote was widely used by amateurs and trade alike. I had some limited exposure to it myself over the years with treating timber. We knew it wasn't good for your skin, we now know that this risk is very much greater than previously thought, therefore we take appropriate measures to reduce or eliminate the risk.