Brendan and David McWilliams on LateLateShow 26/Oct/12

All Brendans figures got lashed tonight on the late late show. I dont think he got a fair say but maybe David Mc Williams etc shouted louder than him. Good TV though and well done Brendan, You Tried but maybe rework the figures to see if you are actually in the ballpark at all.

Mods' Note - i have moved the discussion of the actual figures use in the show to this thread

Brendan

Wasn't really the forum for the guests to take cheap shots at each other. Thought it ruined the opportunity for a good discussion, to be honest.

I was a major David Hall fan on that panal.

I dont see how 20,000 homeless families helps anyone.

There is a massive massive human cost.

How can the goverment say yes for children but is willing to have them dragged out of their homes away from their areas and schools and friends moving home is hugely stressfull at the best of times.

NO nobody need to lose their home and NO nobodys home should be sold or repossessed or anything of the sort.

The banks got paid and want paid again where is the justice in that.

If you want the proof of the damage and the human cost, I had my bike dragged out of my little hands by the sheriff when I was a child and they took our piano,

Then the local esb guy was driving by so for badness he took it apon himself to cut of the power with no notice although the bill was paid and he demanded a deposit, (you know the traditional begruddgery shamefull Irish kick a man when he's down)


So that night we went to bed with no bikes and no piano and a candle. Being small silly children we played with the candle and set a sheet on fire. Our poor mother stressed out of her head gave us all a good hard slap. All these years later I still use a generator despise the ESB and show signs of trauma.

How is a lost generation going to help, we already have the worst brain drain in history.

I agree, They hardly involved the real people, ie, the audience.

Well done Brendan

.
No need to critiscise Brendan because Tubridy is incompetent.
Its about time the real story was told i can give more examples than an ipad can allow because of slow typing.

Simply lots of people jumped on the housing b wagon and lost and want out.
We need to have a referendum about the country defaulting and starting again or not because thats what mcwilliams is suggesting.

Anyone on 100 per cent should be out on their ear

PiedPiper said:

I was a major David Hall fan on that panal.

I dont see how 20,000 homeless families helps anyone.

There is a massive massive human cost.

How can the goverment say yes for children but is willing to have them dragged out of their homes away from their areas and schools and friends moving home is hugely stressfull at the best of times.

NO nobody need to lose their home and NO nobodys home should be sold or repossessed or anything of the sort.

The banks got paid and want paid again where is the justice in that.

If you want the proof of the damage and the human cost, I had my bike dragged out of my little hands by the sheriff when I was a child and they took our piano,

Then the local esb guy was driving by so for badness he took it apon himself to cut of the power with no notice although the bill was paid and he demanded a deposit, (you know the traditional begruddgery shamefull Irish kick a man when he's down)


So that night we went to bed with no bikes and no piano and a candle. Being small silly children we played with the candle and set a sheet on fire. Our poor mother stressed out of her head gave us all a good hard slap. All these years later I still use a generator despise the ESB and show signs of trauma.

How is a lost generation going to help, we already have the worst brain drain in history.

Click to expand...

But How do you ''Flush Out'' the Wont pays from the Cant Pays ? ?

It would be pretty easy the wont pays will have dd to harvy normans full sky packages cc details of the jan ski hols and hp 3 series deals. O
All on the credit history.

riddles said:

It would be pretty easy the wont pays will have dd to harvy normans full sky packages cc details of the jan ski hols and hp 3 series deals. O
All on the credit history.

Click to expand...

Only on credit history if you default on your 62 inch plasma from harvey norman. Pay your bills and you are generally under the radar !

In fact its a pretty amazing model in ireland, you can actually chose never to work in your life and get access to free housing healh education and travel.

I have thrawled the internet and cannot find the criteria for what constitutes the most vulnerable in society or even the low low paid civil servant. What does either mean in an economically validated sense? Your helps appreciated

I can't imagine anyone agreeing with David Hall except those who seek to forego their mortgage repayments.

There is nothing wrong with families renting, same as the rest of us.

Fair play to Brendan. He made some excellent points.

I think people are looking for solutions not sympathy. Mortgages need to be adjusted to what people can reasonably afford to pay. The outstanding debt is linked to the assett then the assett cannot be sold without discharging the debt at a later point.

Same with property tax for elderly same as college grants for farmers. For those cannot right allow debts to accumalate against assett.

Individuals made a mistake a borrowed irresponsibily in large numbers driven by fear and greed. There is a painful lesson to be learned there are easy solutions around but walkin away is not one of them.

Debt for equity is a good idea and would help all families in trouble by halving the debt and halving the responsibility and both the lender and borrower take a hit they will probably be able to manage. David was right 9 years ago and families are in big trouble and this idea while not David's only would be a start and give hope to people.

Debt for equity is a good idea and would help all families in trouble by halving the debt and halving the responsibility and both the lender and borrower take a hit they will probably be able to manage. David was right 9 years ago and families are in big trouble and this idea while not David's only would be a start and give hope to people.

Click to expand...

+1

No 1 listened to David then and no 1 is listening now.................

More is the pity

Maybe we need a third opinion on these matters:


http://uti.is/2012/10/ireland-the-mortgage-debt-and-insolvency-framework/

Watched the show again this morning. Boss did very well indeed, especially considering it was 3 against 1 and I am not too sure Tubridy hid his bias for fellow Blackrock boy, McWilliams. Was the Boss right to launch his planned ambush about the guarantee? Maybe not, got Tubridy against him, I think, though someone has to challenge this aura that McW can get nothing wrong.

The McW piece from 2003 is brilliant, have to hand him that. But he has made some wild suggestions on the back of that success, which I won't go into here.

McW's presentation was very professionally (as an entertainer) delivered but I scrutinised it this morning for substance. Lot's about Granny's good room, but what has that to do with debt forgiveness? The metaphor is worth exploring. Granny is pretending to her betters that she is better off than she is. I presume McW is suggesting that Granny should come clean and admit that she is a pauper. Then of course all that money which she is borrowing to spend on the kids would dry up and then we would see a true spiral into economic and social chaos. Good kilkenomics stuff that, about Granny's good room, but lacks all credibility for informing national policy.

So what about debt forgiveness? Actually McW has backed off this one. It is debt for equity swap these days. As the Boss is tired pointing out equity without rent is forgiveness by another name.

Unbelievably McW lashed out at the possibility of Trackers coming home to roost. Maybe he is setting up his opening speech for 9 years' time. If ever the formula became tilted against the punter, they would simply remortgage, Tracker mortgagees are laughing all the way on their one way bet.

Dervla (?) unwittingly struck a chord for me when she asked at the end how could they afford the rent (as an alternative to a mortgage). This is what it is all about - not negative equity nor high mortgage outlay; mortgage repayments are actually much lower today than at the height of the boom. The fact that many people are in distress and can't afford to pay their mortgage is not because of negative equity, it is because they have been victims of the recession.

Finally, can anyone explain to me this argument (by debt forgiveness lobby) that the lack of repossessions is evidence of more perfidy on the behalf of the banks?

PiedPiper said:

I was a major David Hall fan on that panal.

I dont see how 20,000 homeless families helps anyone.

There is a massive massive human cost.

How can the goverment say yes for children but is willing to have them dragged out of their homes away from their areas and schools and friends moving home is hugely stressfull at the best of times.

NO nobody need to lose their home and NO nobodys home should be sold or repossessed or anything of the sort.

The banks got paid and want paid again where is the justice in that.

If you want the proof of the damage and the human cost, I had my bike dragged out of my little hands by the sheriff when I was a child and they took our piano,

Then the local esb guy was driving by so for badness he took it apon himself to cut of the power with no notice although the bill was paid and he demanded a deposit, (you know the traditional begruddgery shamefull Irish kick a man when he's down)


So that night we went to bed with no bikes and no piano and a candle. Being small silly children we played with the candle and set a sheet on fire. Our poor mother stressed out of her head gave us all a good hard slap. All these years later I still use a generator despise the ESB and show signs of trauma.

How is a lost generation going to help, we already have the worst brain drain in history.

Click to expand...

Do you believe that people who either can't or wont pay for an asset should be allowed to retain that asset?

'Simply lots of people jumped on the housing b wagon and lost and want out.'

And are happy to blame everyone but themselves and expect everyone else to bail them out. And it's not just PPR's.
A big chunk of the troubled mortgage market are BTR's.

What about all the people who are not in trouble?
They get the bill for bailing out the reckless borrowers.

Time for a bit of humanity

sebadoh said:

Do you believe that people who either can't or wont pay for an asset should be allowed to retain that asset?

Click to expand...

That totally depends on the definition of an asset. Is a home an asset? Is water an asset?

assets are economic resources ...... is my tiny apartment with its massive management fees really an asset not really but I need a home and I love it and its mine and I have put my heart and soul into it.

So yes homes are not assets in my view.

Homes are essential to life on the coldest weekend of the winter so far its horrible to sit on your couch in front of your fire thinking about all the people who should be thrown out on street.

If you want to give Brendan or some other punter a can of white paint and let him mark the doors of those he wants punished then off with you but Ireland won't be a better place.

Those who think they have something to gain by others misfortune or some moral hazard to punish are sorely mistaken.

There is no proof or statistics showing that some people are defaulting on purpose. Its quite possibly made up by those who want the status quo to remain as it is.

The country is now divided by the people who are in negative equity and those that are not..........
People with equity in their homes often use the term 'reckless borrowing' and for some in negative equity that is possibly true, for others simply a case of unfortunate timing........
Either way the reality is some form of debt for equity swap is probably the kindest outcome anyone with an unsustainable mortgage can hope for.

However the idea that it is forgiveness by another name is somewhat unfair.........Once restructured in this way the bank effectively participates in ownership, yes there is no rent but against that they avoid crystalising the loss on the property and can write back the impairment provision they should have allocated against what was a non performing loan. They can now also start taking to profit the interest earned on the newly performing (reduced) loan balance, as they ought not to have been taking interest on what was hitherto a non performing loan to their P and L.