I am not paying the Household Charge because...

thedaras said:

Seems to me that they are using vast amounts of energy on problems and zero on solutions!

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I don't have any issues with any of the things you mentioned. I feel if I want to pay (which I dont right now), then it's not that difficult.

However, until such time as the local council stop passing the parcel with my correspondence re. taking my estate in charge, then I won't be paying. I'm paying for services and they won't even answer my questions relating to this - before we even discuss the nuts and bolts of having the estate taken in charge! This is being played out up and down the country - with the same approach. This is a service charge - if you want to enforce a service charge, then you provide basic services.

I also live in an estate that has been taken over by the county council but we have to pay for grass cutting and maintenance ourselves. Costs approx €5000 per annum divided by 50 neighbours .

There are unfortunately some neighbours who piggy back on the rest of us.



Marion

thedaras said:

And where do you think they should get the money to provide you with this basic service?

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As Marion pointed out, it covers very little but the very basics. It doesn't cover grass cutting (and we have the same issue as Marion pointed out in this respect, i.e. 50% of people pay up.).

You think for one second that the moment we pay the household charge, our estate will be taken in charge? Don't be so naive!! Most of the problem that we are having doesn't necessarily involve cost. It involves them getting their act together and accessing the bond the developer left (or did they take one from him at all? ....probably not seeing as they refuse to answer this question!).

The 'Basic Service' i'm talking about was well paid for in stamp duty - as you well know!

Actually, I have no problem paying for grass cutting and maintenance of the area where I live. I think people should be proud of where they live and be willing to contribute to maintain it. I don't see why the council should have a role in grass cutting and maintenance of communities.

My sister who lives in Canada tells me that they were where we are now a number of years ago.

Canadians now accept that to have proper services that they must pay property taxes. She pays approx 3000 on an equivalent size house to mine.

She also tells me that the government can foreclose on property if the taxes are not paid.


We would all prefer not to pay taxes but, if we want services we have to pay for them.

I actually don't use my local library but I am happy to pay for it and I might start using it in the future. I also like the fact that I can choose to go to my recycling centre to dispose of toxic and other waste materials at a minimal cost. I also like having street lights in my housing estate.

Marion

serotonised,So where do they get the money from?
I hear what you are saying'but there are no solutions being offered -If I and others pay this charge surely you would benefit from it-if I and others don't pay surely you will suffer even more? I can tell you that the footpaths where I live are in bits that we the residents pay to have the grass cut we pay a private company to collect our bins we plant and look after the green,so the services would be for libraries lighting the police etc?It seems that a change of name from household charge to "we need money to keep the show on the road" tax, plans ""would perhaps be more appropriate,, as a matter of interest, why do you think others are choosing to pay it?


serotonised:

You think for one second that the moment we pay the household charge, our estate will be taken in charge? Don't be so naive!!

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I didnt say that would happen,or elude to it..

serotonised:

Most of the problem that we are having doesn't necessarily involve cost. It involves them getting their act together and accessing the bond the developer left (or did they take one from him at all? ....probably not seeing as they refuse to answer this question!).

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When you say "them getting their act together". Who exactly are you talking about?

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serotonised:

The 'Basic Service' i'm talking about was well paid for in stamp duty - as you well know!

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And I also paid 48 thousand euro in stamp duty..

thedaras said:

serotonised,So where do they get the money from

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Did I say that I was against a property tax in principle? Speaking from a personal point of view, my estate needs to be taken in charge by the local authority before they will see one red cent from me. Furthermore, (as already outlined) I've had civil servants fobbing me off - not answering very basic questions - with a chain of letters in response saying Mary has passed the matter on to Jim, Jim has passed it on to someone else - and I will guarantee you, If I email them today, I will get exactly the same response (following a basic query submitted 12 months ago). And you think I should contribute to such "services". Theres nothing wrong with a property tax - but the fundamentals are wrong in the Irish context as it will be pee'd up against a wall!

Furthermore, the government can fulfil the mandate that they were given by the electorate and renegotiate the banking element of the debt equation. You might find people much more willing to contribute to our own national deficit if they didn't think their hard earned $ was in part going towards banks that should have been let go.

thedaras said:

as a matter of interest, why do you think others are choosing to pay it?

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Varying reasons. Fear for some. And for others, the reasons you mentioned i.e. basic services. However, having had the experience of living abroad in a couple of european countries, if the fundamentals are not right (and they very much are NOT), then peoples hard earned money is going to be squandered!

thedaras said:

I didnt say that would happen,or elude to it..

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Fair enough - but I think 6 years after us all moving in here, it's a reasonable expectation - either before or after paying said charge. In actual fact, it doesn't matter - as it shouldn't cost them anything IF they have taken an adequate bond from the developer (but they refuse to tell me this).

thedaras said:

When you say "them getting their act together". Who exactly are you talking about?

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The local authority of course - who else?

thedaras said:

And I also paid 48 thousand euro in stamp duty..

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Sure you did - everyone did. However, you understand the context in which I referred to stamp duty i.e. specific issue of them NOT taking my estate in charge relative to a major tax on that property at point of sale.

ajapale said:

Is a precursor property tax levied on property owners.

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I'm fully aware of that. It is nevertheless a service charge insofar as the revenue stream is supposed to find its way into funding local services.

I will NOT be paying for reasons outlined above.

Serotoninsid, your argument sounds a little like the argument people use not to pay their management fees in my estate. No services, not paying. How can you provide services, if people do not pay? Up until this year, the funds for local services came from another pot. If we don't fill this new pot, the cold hard fact is local services will suffer. I don't personally like paying another €100 out a year on top of the €1800 I pay to my management company but thems the breaks.
DerK is correct - we all have our own opinion on where the money should come from, I would love to see savings other places (dont get me started on allowances and expenses) but this is the decision the government have made and the law of the land. If I don't like it, I will not vote for them again.

serotoninsid said:

Did I say that I was against a property tax in principle? Speaking from a personal point of view, my estate needs to be taken in charge by the local authority before they will see one red cent from me. Furthermore, (as already outlined) I've had civil servants fobbing me off - not answering very basic questions - with a chain of letters in response saying Mary has passed the matter on to Jim, Jim has passed it on to someone else - and I will guarantee you, If I email them today, I will get exactly the same response (following a basic query submitted 12 months ago). And you think I should contribute to such "services". Theres nothing wrong with a property tax - but the fundamentals are wrong in the Irish context as it will be pee'd up against a wall!

.

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This is because you are getting onto the wrong place. Taking estates into charge is something that is dealt with at local authority level, not by central government. You need to contact your council, not any of the civil service organisations.

serotoninsid said:

I don't have any issues with any of the things you mentioned. I feel if I want to pay (which I dont right now), then it's not that difficult.

However, until such time as the local council stop passing the parcel with my correspondence re. taking my estate in charge, then I won't be paying. I'm paying for services and they won't even answer my questions relating to this - before we even discuss the nuts and bolts of having the estate taken in charge! This is being played out up and down the country - with the same approach. This is a service charge - if you want to enforce a service charge, then you provide basic services.

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The legislation on the Household charge.ie website lists those estates not eligible to pay the household charge. You could safely take it that if your estate is not listed then it is liable for the charge and most likely taken into charge.
You can also find out on the county council website through the council meetings or even better still, ring your local councillor to find out.

Why should the local authority take your estate in charge in advance of all the requirements being met? Does youir estate meet the standards set out by your local authority (water, sewers, drainage, roads, footpaths) etc? If not then it is the responsibility of the developer / current owners to rectify.

uptomyeyesin said:

Serotoninsid, your argument sounds a little like the argument people use not to pay their management fees in my estate. No services, not paying. How can you provide services, if people do not pay? Up until this year, the funds for local services came from another pot.

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NO - it's not! If you re-read what I have written, what I am asking for doesn't necessarily cost the Local Authority anything! They simply won't engage - that is to say, their existing staff WONT cooperate! Now, as I said before - I've lived in 2 european countries and know what services get delivered for taxes. When something is as fundamentally flawed as the example I've given, how could I (or the thousands of others affected by this same issue) have ANY confidence of their property tax converting effectively into services???

csirl said:

This is because you are getting onto the wrong place. Taking estates into charge is something that is dealt with at local authority level, not by central government. You need to contact your council, not any of the civil service organisations.

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symantics. Ok, are local authority employees not public servants? If not, my bad - but that's what I meant - and in that way, my point stands!

Fiskar said:

The legislation on the Household charge.ie website lists those estates not eligible to pay the household charge. You could safely take it that if your estate is not listed then it is liable for the charge and most likely taken into charge.

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It would be totally RATIONAL to expect that Fiskar - but I've checked and our estate is NOT listed as exempt and NOT taken into charge. There are literally thousands of estates in the same position up and down the country.

ajapale said:

Why should the local authority take your estate in charge in advance of all the requirements being met? Does youir estate meet the standards set out by your local authority (water, sewers, drainage, roads, footpaths) etc? If not then it is the responsibility of the developer / current owners to rectify.

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Ajapale - they won't even engage with us on the subject - this (or efforts simply to get answers to questions) has been ongoing for 12 months now. We are in the estate for 6 years! They won't even confirm the bond (I know there are other ways of obtaining that info - but why can't they just confirm if there is or no and if so, what is it?).

On the back of that, you think anyone in my estate has any faith that the revenue stream raised will be utilised in the same way as it is in the UK, Germany, etc??


<EDIT> I forgot to add the following point. You ask why they should take the estate on when its not completed? Ask yourself this. Who took a bond from the developer? Who granted them planning permission? Who ensured that the developer adhered to planning consent? Who is supposed to issue enforcement notices and act if there are instances of non-compliance? Whose responsibility is it to access the bond so as to bring about completion in instances where it's as clear as night and day that the developer isn't going to complete? That be the Co.Co. Planning Office, right? </EDIT>

On the back of that, you think anyone in my estate has any faith that the revenue stream raised will be utilised in the same way as it is in the UK, Germany, etc??

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Short Answer is NO, it will be like giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.

serotoninsid said:

Ajapale - they won't even engage with us on the subject

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I understand your frustration, Im in a very similar situation and we (through citizens advice) got in touch with an excellent FLAC lawyer who explained the process in detail. It transpired (in our case) that most of the "blame"/"procrastination" lies with the developer and the current owners of the estate (the management company set up by him) and not the home owners or the local authority.

My advice get in touch with FLAC and engage you own solicitor if necessary to progress the matter.

Spare a thought for rural house owners many of whom who pay for water, sewer, refuse, lighting, litter and even roads (where the road/laneway up to their house is privately owned). They still must pay the €100 property tax and the local authority will never-ever take over these services.

ajapale said:

I understand your frustration, Im in a very similar situation and we (through citizens advice) got in touch with an excellent FLAC lawyer who explained the process in detail. It transpired (in our case) that most of the "blame"/"procrastination" lies with the developer and the current owners of the estate (the management company set up by him) and not the home owners or the local authority.

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Of course, blame lies with the developer - but the developer worked within the 'system' that was there. The remarkable thing is that the 'system' hasn't changed! There is no legislation in place for this - or if there is, it's not being enforced. We didn't have a management company in place - meaning that we had to get together as a group and organise grass cutting and the like - once the developer told us ..tough, I'm not doing it anymore. That means that we only get 50% of residents paying up - and there is no way we can make the rest pay!! That's just plain wrong! However, legislative change could easily address this! Likewise, I got an enforcement notice against the developer - but all it was was vapourware - they never followed through and enforced!

So...if a local authority can't get basic things like this right (and there is NO cost involved here! - then you think I have any faith in how they will spend my (and your) €100? (not to mention the additional €200 the year after, and additional €200 the year after that?).

The big elephant in the room is public service and this government (just like the last one) doesn't have what it takes to tackle them head on. I'm not saying thats an easy job - but it is a necessary job. If we did that, we might find that we don't need to raise half as much additional $$ to balance the national books. And by the way - this is not news - EVERYONE knows this!

ajapale said:

Spare a thought for rural house owners many of whom who pay for water, sewer, refuse, lighting, litter and even roads (where the road/laneway up to their house is privately owned). They still must pay the €100 property tax and the local authority will never-ever take over these services.

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Well, IF they were to get value for money, then they too would see a return on their €100. Many things that could be improved eg. broadband for rural dwellers ..and that's just the start of a whole list of things that could be addressed had we any confidence that half the revenue won't end up pee'd up against a wall - or used for the purposes of filling in the banking fiscal 'hole'.

monagt said:

Short Answer is NO, it will be like giving an alcoholic access to an open bar.

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Thank you! Lets get the fundamentals right FIRST before we start handing over (even) more of our hard earned €€ to what is (at least right now) an incompetent administration.

Im not paying the HC because....Bertie Ahern says he is not paying the Household Charge