What could/would be wrong with this? Pay "Front Line" public servants relatively more

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thedaras

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Thinking about the state of the country and recognising that some of those in the public service should be paid more than others I thought of a solution that may have no basis for implementing,but here goes!

I think the majority of us recognise that the following workers are "front line"..
Gardai
Nurses,
Ambulance drivers,
Fire men/.women..
Would it be fair to say that these are the front line staff that deserve to be paid more or have their salary's remain as is at least?

If so how do we do this? My solution is ,get rid of the ones who are not needed,ie HR, too many admin staff too many middle management etc and those identified as being surplus to requirements.
(we know already that this should be done,but we also know it wont be )

Then with the money that is saved,those on the frontline at the very least can retain what they are paid or maybe even given an increase.

This would keep the public happy ie; there are no Public servants who are doing nothing and getting paid for it,also those on the frontline are well paid and this will mean they are also happy,it also ups the whole attitute of those in the PS,as those who remain are not picking up the slack for the dossers.

Anyhow would be interested to hear other views on this.
 
I think the whole "front line staff" line is rubbish. The idea that they are all great and it's those clerks and managers that are the problem is insulting and simplistic. I's suggest that there are as many lazy "front line" staff as there are non-front line staff. I'd also suggest that it's the front line people that are most overpaid.

We have twice as many nurses per head as France. Can the same be said for health service admin staff?
 
I don't want to get into bashing public sector workers.. However here is my 2 cents.. There is no employment embargo on Social Workers - due to the abuse scandals etc.. In Ireland, each county (and in certain health districts) there are different processes and procedures Social Workers must follow when addressing certain issues.. (my cousin is a social worker in Dublin and she told me that within districts - there are different standards and procedures) ..

So if you think of it, no matter how many social workers the HSE employ, children who need help will still fall through the cracks, and are at risk.. When you have a fragmented health system, no amount of money can fix it..
P..
 
I generally agree with you. Rather than cut the pay of everyone, the surplus requirement should be gotten rid of. And by surplus requirement I mean within departments that are needed and certain services as a whole. Cutting wages dis-incentivises all people, especially those that we are most reliant on and those that work the hardest.

Purple said:
I think the whole "front line staff" line is rubbish. The idea that they are all great and it's those clerks and managers that are the problem is insulting and simplistic. I's suggest that there are as many lazy "front line" staff as there are non-front line staff. I'd also suggest that it's the front line people that are most overpaid.

We have twice as many nurses per head as France. Can the same be said for health service admin staff?
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Very good point, and I agree that a lot more stringent performance controls are needed.
Just in relation to the amount of nurses per head compared to France, my wife worked with a French nurse a few years ago, and she said that while France has less nurses they have far more nurse's aids (I think that's what they call them). She said that nurses in France do not perform duties such as changing sheets, feeding patients, washing patients, etc, but rather only focus on the medical care of the patient. That would explain the discrepancy in numbers. This would, however, be a good reason to reduce the amount of nurses and increase the number over lower paid nurse's aids.
 
Same can be said of doctors Chris; in most countries GP's do far more in-surgery work such as minor surgery, stitching etc. Irish GP's act like glorified nurses most of the time.
 
Purple said:
Same can be said of doctors Chris; in most countries GP's do far more in-surgery work such as minor surgery, stitching etc. Irish GP's act like glorified nurses most of the time.
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Absolutely. Everything should be done to increase the productivity of all elements of all services.
The analogy of ditch digging comes to mind. You could achieve the same perfect ditch by giving 100 people spoons to dig with or give one person a JCB. Only the latter makes sense to do.
 
Purple said:
I think the whole "front line staff" line is rubbish. The idea that they are all great and it's those clerks and managers that are the problem is insulting and simplistic.
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+1

The OP states that Gardai are Frontline... is that all 14,000 Gardai of all rank? The ones on the street only ? The ones in busy crime areas ? What about the Gardai that sit outside judges/ex-Taoisigh's houses ?

As for the frontline nurses ? Is that the nurses that work on wards only? Or does it include Public health nurses ? Nurses in triage in A&E depts ?

I think it is naive to suggest that any large organisation can function without a good administrative arm to complement it. There are some exceptional individuals working in the area of Public (and Private) administration that are the backbone of their respective organisations.
 
Just wondering, would the op consider high court judges to be front line or non front line?

I agree with purple the whole "front line" thing is largely a spurious distinction.
 
Purple said:
I think the whole "front line staff" line is rubbish. The idea that they are all great and it's those clerks and managers that are the problem is insulting and simplistic. I's suggest that there are as many lazy "front line" staff as there are non-front line staff. I'd also suggest that it's the front line people that are most overpaid.

We have twice as many nurses per head as France. Can the same be said for health service admin staff?
Click to expand...
+1

Anyway Frontline staff (sic) need backroom staff to function....doesn't this over-simplification and grandstanding, this politics of the quip and oneline solutions, make you bury your head in despair? A few heads here can see the problems with this in minutes, but the grandees running the show keep trotting out this simplistic piffle.
 
"frontline"This is what the unions keep telling us they are.Guards ,nurses, firemen/women etc,this is consistently trotted out by the unions,when there is any talk of job losses or staff cutbacks or pay cuts,the unions say it will affect the frontline staff.For no other reason..I didnt determine who they were, it was the unions..like this among several other examples;

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1206/union.html

It goes without saying that frontline staff need backroom staff,but it is clear they do not need as many as there are at present.

I have no idea about judges and if they are frontline or not, I would imagine it would depend on what the unions say.Is there a union for judges?

As I said in my original post..I think the majority of us recognise that the following workers are "front line"..
Gardai
Nurses,
Ambulance drivers,
Fire men/.women..
If not Who are the "frontline staff" the unions keep mentioning?
 
Good Man, thedaras, divide and conquer. The government tried this already and succeeded somewhat.

The general election will be decided within a fortnight. Time then for another one-day strike and another Beano for the traders in Newry.
 
horusd said:
+1

Anyway Frontline staff (sic) need backroom staff to function....doesn't this over-simplification and grandstanding, this politics of the quip and oneline solutions, make you bury your head in despair? A few heads here can see the problems with this in minutes, but the grandees running the show keep trotting out this simplistic piffle.
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+2.Simplistic answers to difficult Qs.There IS a lot of room
for surgery in the public service and ig it is done right
everybody( well maybe a vast majority) will be satisfied
including most union members.
 
Leper said:
Good Man, thedaras, divide and conquer. The government tried this already and succeeded somewhat.

The general election will be decided within a fortnight. Time then for another one-day strike and another Beano for the traders in Newry.
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I really would like you to clarify that statement re divide and conquer??
Im trying to see things from both sides and looking to see what kind of solution would work that would keep everyone(or at least most ) feeling good!
I dont see what your problem is with me trying to clarify who the "frontline " staff are.( I cant see what else is the issue?)

Remember I mentioned in the OP that as I understood it they were Guards,nurses etc,but that was challenged and fairly so,and why not.

Also "good man" eh Im a woman..
I dont see where the divide and conquer is?
 
I agree with Purple and Chris on the front line issue.

My opinion on cuts in the public sector is that we should not use the broad brush cut everyones pay approach. We need to go through the book of estimates and look at what services are necessary and what are optional. Staff in unnecessary optional programmes, where funding has already been cut in most cases, should be made redundant. Agenceis which operate these programmes should be shut down.

I don't agree with the view that "nurses, guards, doctors, teachers etc." are underpaid and overworked. In many cases I would take the opposite view - the unions/interest groups have consistently played the strike card over the years to the extent that politicians have been affraid to take them on. The net result is that they are largely overpaid and underworked in comparison with our EU colleagues. Many also have a bad "it's not my job" attitude to doing some tasks which they consider beneath them.
 
thedaras said:
I dont see what your problem is with me trying to clarify who the "frontline " staff are.
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Are the people who man the phones in the tax office "frontline"?

How about the people in the dole office?

How does it reconcile with your plan that "backroom" IT expertise is in very short supply?

Was it the situation a couple of years ago that the guards were remunerated fairly relative to admin staff?

If so, why now would you cut one and not the other?

Does it not matter how generous we were in the past i.e. if we'd totally lost the run of ourselves and had increased frontline staff pay to a level far above the current level would you still exempt them from pay cuts?
 
Once again....If not Who are the "frontline staff" the unions keep mentioning?
Im not saying who the frontline staff are,its the unions ..Perhaps the IT staff should get on to the union and mention that along with the Guards,nurses,firemen and women that the IT staff are also front line..
Anyhow at least Im trying to come up with ideas instead of just moaning about all the issues ,we know what the issues are..we need solutions now....it was just an idea!!
 
thedaras said:
Once again....If not Who are the "frontline staff" the unions keep mentioning?
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The unions have a job to do. In the public sector they are fighting a battle in terms of public perception.

The lazy perception is that no one does anything in the public service.

The danger for the unions is that this will ultimately lead to pressure on the government to reduce the size and cost of the public sector.

What do they do? They point out to people that there is obvious work done in the public sector. People deal with nurses, teachers, guards, etc everyday.

It is harder to go out an espouse the merits of someone who is just as useful, if not more so, if neither you nor the general public understand their roles or see what they do on a daily basis e.g. IT resources.

So the unions just fight the smarter battle by pointing out something that is obvious to everyone (e.g. firemen rescue people) in order to hold back the wave of negative sentiment against the entire public service.

This has somehow morphed into the idea that people who save lives are infinitely valuable whilst people who work at computers are not.

There are lots of people who would be capable and happy to be teachers, nurses, guards, etc. There are not lots of people capable of leading a project to designing and implement an efficient HR system for example. This point the most important consideration in determining wages. There's no point in throwing money at guards, nurses, etc as we have plenty capable people willing to do this work. Good IT experience on the other hand is maybe something the public service should have paid more for or at least tried somehow to attract better people in the past.
 
i agree with most of the replies so far. Just because someone isn't 'out in front' doesn't mean they're not doing essential support work. Very simplistic solution.
 
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