ClubMan v's OhPinchy - Your very own thread

Ok Guys,

I feel as though you two should " get a room"

So here you are... the bed is made and everything...

Re: Micheal Jackson - innocent?

ClubMan said:

In this case MJ is innocent of the charges presented having been acquitted by a jury of his peers who came to this conclusion having assessed all of the available evidence presented to them.

Fair enough - but surely every case is a sad case for somebody given that normally either the prosecution or the defence "win" the case and the other loses? I don't see why this case is any more significant than the many others that take place every day?

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Clubman why oh why do you feel the need to lecture almost everyone that posts an opinion that differs to yours? It has become truly predictable and I firmly believe that your overbearing comments are directly related to the sharp drop in the number of users in the non-financial sections of AAM.

I was discussing this with some friends recently and all agree that their interest in AAM has waned as they know that if they post something that you perceive as controversial in any way you will pop up to tell them off soon after. As I have stated previously I believe that the more people that use AAM in any shape or form the better for it overall - people that use the non-financial sections will eventually contribute to the financial sections.

In this particular case just because a man is found not guilty in a court of law does not mean that he is an innocent man. The original poster may well hold the belief that MJ is guilty of molesting some children, maybe even the children involved in this case and that the prosecution are to blame for the innocent verdict due to their mistake in making the charges too specific. MJ is innocent of these particular charges but the poster is well entitled to feel that he may well still be a child molestor. Judge Curtin got off the hook on a technicality and somehow Haughey has avoided prosecution - I think that both of these men are guilty of different crimes and am entitled to feel that.

And yes every case is sad for someone but the degree of that sadness varies with each case and the poster is totally entitled to his view if he were to state that he felt that this was sadder than your run-of-the-mill case. Maybe if you stuck to airing your views as opposed to admonishing others for theirs people would feel less intimidated about posting here.

Re: Micheal Jackson - innocent?

OhPinchy said:

Clubman why oh why do you feel the need to lecture almost everyone that posts an opinion that differs to yours?

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I'm not lecturing anybody - I'm merely contributing my opinion to the discussion.

It has become truly predictable and I firmly believe that your overbearing comments are directly related to the sharp drop in the number of users in the non-financial sections of AAM.

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You're entitled to your opinion but I would be interested if you could back that claim up and maybe provide other examples of where people objected to me expressing my opinions. I must check the site stats again but I'm pretty sure that there has not been any reduction in the amount of activity on the site lately in spite of what you claim.

Can you explain how my allegedly overbearing comments here in a forum called Letting Off Steam designed for the discussion of current affairs and other off topic non financial subjects is supposedly scaring people out of the core financial forums?

I was discussing this with some friends recently and all agree that their interest in AAM has waned as they know that if they post something that you perceive as controversial in any way you will pop up to tell them off soon after.

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It's a discussion forum. Get over it!

In this particular case just because a man is found not guilty in a court of law does not mean that he is an innocent man.

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Er - can you explain that please!?

The original poster may well hold the belief that MJ is guilty of molesting some children, maybe even the children involved in this case and that the prosecution are to blame for the innocent verdict due to their mistake in making the charges too specific. MJ is innocent of these particular charges but the poster is well entitled to feel that he may well still be a child molestor.

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I'm sure that fobs can spreak for him/herself. For what it's worth I never suggested that fobs was accusing MJ of molesting any children.

Judge Curtin got off the hook on a technicality and somehow Haughey has avoided prosecution - I think that both of these men are guilty of different crimes and am entitled to feel that.

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At the risk of being accused of lecturing you, you might want to be careful what you say about matters that are still ongoing and not fully resolved. To state that somebody got off on a technicality in such a sensitive case could be dodgy for you and AAM as a whole.

Maybe if you stuck to airing your views as opposed to admonishing others for theirs people would feel less intimidated about posting here.

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Where exactly did I admonish or intimidate anybody?

It's a little unfortunate that you don't seem to like my style or contributions or assume that these have scared some people off or impacted the activity on the site but this will not prevent me from continuing to participate in discussions as I see fit. In fact you seem to have a bit of a bee in your bonnet about me for some reason but that's not my problem. To be honest I think that you underestimate the ability of others to engage in discussion (with me and others) and, where they disagree with me, to rebut my opinions. In doing so I think that you are crediting me with more influence on the site that I can reasonably lay claim to. I think that it's very noble of you to assume the mantle of spokesperson for all those who are allegedly too scared of me to contribute to AAM any more. However, if you really want to discuss me or my overall contribution to the site (good, bad, ugly and indifferent) then feel free to open a new thread on this rather than us hijacking this one.

Cheers!

Re: Micheal Jackson - innocent?

ClubMan said:

I'm not lecturing anybody - I'm merely contributing my opinion to the discussion.

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Thats the whole point - I really feel that the tone you use is quite confrontational and does come across as if you are lecturing people. Of course you are entitled to air your opinion (sure don't you run this place) but I just think that you could stick to making your counter arguments as opposed to launching into specific attacks on many posters' posts.

ClubMan said:

You're entitled to your opinion but I would be interested if you could back that claim up and maybe provide other examples of where people objected to me expressing my opinions. I must check the site stats again but I'm pretty sure that there has not been any reduction in the amount of activity on the site lately in spite of what you claim.

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Its not as if I'm gonna commission a government report on this now is it but I would be highly suprised if the real statistics do not show a drop-off in use on AAM since the changeover to vBulletin. It is my opinion that the change in user interface is a factor in this though I also believe that the overbearing style of yourself and posters like Rainyday makes it more intimidating for people to post and so fewer bother. True this is based on anecdotal evidence of the many people I know that used to use this site but to me they are a good enough sample and I believe that there are probably many people who browse AAM but don't bother to post due to the reception they believe they will receive

ClubMan said:

Can you explain how my allegedly overbearing comments here in a forum called Letting Off Steam designed for the discussion of current affairs and other off topic non financial subjects is supposedly scaring people out of the core financial forums?

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As I have said before - the more people involved in AAM in any shape or form the better for all concerned. There may be people that start off only posting in the non-financial sections as they don't have much experience to share on financial topics. By ensuring these people feel part of the community it is more likely that they will contribute to the financial sections when they have something worth sharing - if they leave before then (as I believe many do due to them feeling intimidated by unnecessarily confrontational posts by senior posters) then we all miss out on the experiences they may have shared.

My point on a man being found not guilty but not necessarily being innocent is pretty straightforward really: for example MJ was found not guilty of a specific set of charges - that does not mean that he is a completely innocent man as I like many others believe that he is guilty of other crimes that were not included in this narrow set of specific charges.

This is a pretty good example of what I believe to be your anal nature though - I've posted a similar opinion on other discussion forums and most people seemed to get the drift straight off - whereas I just feel that you have to dissect every minute detail of each post and this results in the poster having to waste time clarifying their point which for me is just too much hassle.

So I wouldn't say that I have a bee in my bonnet about you - the contributions and effort you put in here are a great service to many people and plenty of people, myself included have benefited from them so you are to be thanked for that. My point is simply that I feel that you could loosen up a bit and be less confrontational while still voicing your opinion - I feel that this would make AAM a more welcoming place which would attract more users and would therefore be better for all involved.

Re: Micheal Jackson - innocent?

OhPinchy - there's nothing I can (or am willing to) really do about you

• considering my tone to be confrontational, overbearing, intimidating
• thinking that I make specific attacks on many posters' posts
• assuming that I am mainly or partly responsible for any (as yet unproven) fall-off in activity on the site
• accusing me of having an anal nature
• insinuating (facetiously I presume?) that I "run" the site
• advising me to loosen up a bit
• and, in my opinion, having some sort of a bee in your bonnet about my participation in the site

You are entitled to your opinions, all of which I would fundamentally disagree with, but - either way - they will have no bearing on the manner and nature of my contributions to AAM.

Cheers!

P.S. I must look at the site logs when I get a chance and get some real insight into the issue of whether or not there is any fall-off in activity on the site.

Anyway - enough of this diversion and back to the thread in hand...

Ironically Im a little scared to contribute to this thread

insinuating (facetiously I presume?) that I "run" the site

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Clubman, I dont think OhPinchy meant this in a negative connotation (this is just my interpretation of his post). I think he just meant that many of us view you and rainyday (amongst others) as the people who "run" the site. This is due to your feedback and knowledge on the more relevant financial issues and the admin tasks you both perform, and a very good job you all do too.

cas.

I've split the relevant posts out from the original topic and put them in here (unfortunately ThomasJ's post ends up at the end but there you go). If anybody really wants to discuss this important issue further please do so here.

I have noticed a tendency in the LOS forum (and others now that I think of it) for posters to make sweeping statements about whatever issue appears to be bothering them (ironically enough, I won't give examples). I have also noticed that Clubman and Rainyday will challenge posters to back up their statements with facts, figures, and reasoning - I think this is a good thing in general, and should be a feature of more debates. I can't say I found anything in the "tone" of their posts to be especially offensive, overbearing or unreasonable. I would suggest a lot of people in this country (and on this board) are unable to deal with somebody basically saying "put up or shut up".

As soon as I see the phrase "why oh why" I know somebody is in for a fairly patronising rebuke, and to suggest on the one side that an individual is "Anal" and on the other that a "great service" is provided is merely speaking out of both sides of ones mouth.

Clubman et al., keep challenging the "conventional" wisdom, 'cos it never is.

Imperator

Maybe I'm imagining it but I thought up to now at least that AAM has been busier than ever before since we moved to vbulletin.

ubiquitous said:

Maybe I'm imagining it but I thought up to now at least that AAM has been busier than ever before since we moved to vbulletin.

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I haven't been able to obtain useful figures from the old ezBoard forum to compare with the current ones from vBulletin. Unfortunately I can only see the last month's worth of stats on the former and this is not representative of how active that version was in normal (i.e. pre vBulletin migration) use. One directly comparable statistic is that ezBoard had 3188 registered users but vBulletin currently has 1409. However the ezBoard user registrations had built up over several years, not all of them were active, registration was mandatory in more recent months while the vBulletin forum allows unregistered posting in some forums so perhaps these figures are not so easily comparable. In any case nobody has claimed that the likes of me or RainyDay etc. are scaring people off registering in the first place, whatever about contributing or continuing to contribute, so it may be a moot point anyway?

Imperator said:

Clubman et al., keep challenging the "conventional" wisdom, 'cos it never is.

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Thanks for the supportive comments Imperator. Your interpretation of the rationale for what others see as nitpicking challenges by me to certain comments is 100% accurate.

In relation to a previous comment by OhPinchy I like to think of myself as skeptical, questioning, factual and (as far as possible) accurate (but certainly not infallible) on most issues that I discuss. Of course to some people this might be considered "anal" but, even so, I would consider this no less complimentary when it comes down to it.

I am very upset

This link no longer belongs to me....

I booked the room and everything...

ThomasJ said:

I am very upset

This link no longer belongs to me....

I booked the room and everything...

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It is again - courtesy of a judicious (time warping) SQL update query on the underlying database!

too long/didn't read.

Imperator

You took the words right out of my mouth. I could not have said it any better.

When the skeptics apply rational thought to the purveyors of alternative medicines, astrology and other mumbo jumbos, the skeptics appear to be spoilsports. It's the same with Clubmand and Rainyday - they are not prepared to allow people make sweeping statements without challenge. Clubman and Rainyday have, on occasion, challenged my statements - it's uncomfortable, but it helps establish a more balanced view.

That is not to say that Rainday or Clubman (especially Rainyday) has a monopoly on the right opinon. They just happen to be a bit more logical and systematic and careful than most debaters.

Brendan

Amen. Aude sapere*, the old Enlightenment motto, comes to mind. If people find that "overbearing", then so be it...

...Howzat for a circular argument?!
[*"Dare to know"]

Brendan said:

That is not to say that Rainday or Clubman (especially Rainyday) has a monopoly on the right opinon.

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I thought that we had a duopoly?

As a regular purveyor of the sweeping statement I find it's not the nit picking that annoys me from those two, rather it’s their habit of insisting on the application of logical analysis. Bugs the c**p out of me.
It really prevents one from venting ones spleen, as it were, when some spoil sport will pick up on every little unsubstantiated and/or suspect comment. If this keeps up AAM will end up maintaining the high level of debate and comment that has made it so attractive over the last year or so, despite the best efforts of some contributors (like me).

Brendan said:

That is not to say that Rainday or Clubman (especially Rainyday) has a monopoly on the right opinon.

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I'd prefer to keep a monopoly on the left opinion, if that's OK with y'all.

But seriously folks - of course I get frustrated with Clubman (and others) from time to time and I'm sure the reverse is true. Most of the time, I avoid any personal stuff and try to focus on the issue in hand, but I fail to keep focus from time to time.

I search my conscience but I really can't see how anything Clubman or I have said could be seen as overbearing, or bullying. I am frequently guilty of curtness, but that is really just a matter of limited time available for AAM.

I was more worried about a view expressed by some that I came across as being negative about Property Investment. I really wouldn't want to be seen as steering people one way or other. I would ask probing questions when posters seem to be planning major investments without having fully thought through the consequences. Most such posts seem to relate to property investments, particularly in more exotic regions.

RainyDay said:

I search my conscience but I really can't see how anything Clubman or I have said could be seen as overbearing, or bullying.

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It's ClubMan actually. At least I know that if I do ever become overbearing or bullying then it will be on your conscience.

I have to say that I sometimes find Clubmans comments very dismissive. God help you if you have an opinion different to his. He has his inevitable links that he consistently uses to intimidate the poster and end the discussion. Rainyday is a troll that picks up on every word that a poster uses to direct the thread to his own format and conclusion. We don't always get every word right so instead of having a general discussion open to everybody we end up nit picking instead of letting the thread run. I sometimes think that Rainyday is the darker side of Clubman.