Next wave of the crisis

beekeeper

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I am looking for money making ideas/investments/trades that will take advantage of the next wave in this credit crunch which i think we will see in the new year. I was just discussing this with a friend and we both agreed that it has to get much worse before we see the bottom. Lets be honest..not one bank and only one small developer has officially gone bust in Ireland so far. The property market has come off 20/30% from the highs which is a drop in the ocean compared to the astonishining rise we have seen in property in Ireland over the past 10 years.

In my view we will see another 30/40% drop in house prices in Ireland in the first 6 months of the new year, one or two of the banks will go to the wall and quite a few small and large developers will declare bankrupcy in the new year.

Sorry for being such a doom and gloom merchant but its my view. However there must be a way to profit from this !??
 
For a start no Bank will go to the wall - The E.U. will save it if need's be. As for Builders etc. who know's?
 
Pawnbrokers, loansharking, shotgun sales...
What if money itself becomes old hat? - we may have a new paradigm shift.
 
You are right beekeeper about not hitting the bottom yet, we have yet to see capitulation in the markets when people sell all shares and every stock indiscriminately. Then the markets will be a huge buy.

As for the claim that only one small developer has gone bust I think it is much much more!

The banking crisis may be largely over buy the real economy is now getting hit. Large caps with huge layoffs as seen in the UK recently will be the trend, i.e. BT and RBS. Also large profit rightdowns such as vodafones last week.

This downturn is far from over. 18 bear months minimum. I reckon 30 months before we see a real upturn in the economy. Thats not being pessimistic. Its not about being pessimistic or optimistic its about being realistic!

A major reversion to the mean is occuring in property and this will undershoot by some way. Property will be cheap in around 3 years. Don't buy before as you'll be trying to catch a falling knife. Lucky stocks have gone under the mean (look at the current P/E compared to history) but still have some way to 'bottom'. Unfortunately property is still going to go one way for many many months to come.

Sit in cash and await the biggest bargains of our lifetimes...
 
For a start no Bank will go to the wall - The E.U. will save it if need's be. As for Builders etc. who know's?

BroadbandKen... that is a ridiculous statement and with all respect this is symptomatic of a large portion of the population of Ireland and partly responsible for the position we are in now !! 2 of the main banks in Ireland are trading c. E1 at present and one is so dependent on commercial property lending it is as good as bust.

As for the EU saving the banks.. nota hope. If Bear Stearns and Lehmens in the US can go to the wall .. surely Irish banks can and will.
 
beekeeper;As for the EU saving the banks.. nota hope. If Bear Stearns and Lehmens in the US can go to the wall .. surely Irish banks can and will.[/quote said:
Or the question should be 'How many, For How much and WHEN ???'
 
another post full of silly people trying to predict the future . when people say "i think property will fall another 30 - 40%" , they are talking rubbish . no one knows what will happen.

and by the way if one of the banks goes to the wall as you put it then the irish govt will step in and take control of them. no bank is actually closing , all the banks that are failing in america are being run now by the FDIC. they are still open for business but just under a differnet name.
 
and by the way if one of the banks goes to the wall as you put it then the irish govt will step in and take control of them. no bank is actually closing , all the banks that are failing in america are being run now by the FDIC. they are still open for business but just under a differnet name.
Not much consolation to their shareholders... mainly large pension funds. The FDIC guarantees deposits, as its name implies. Bond holders often get stuffed as they only get a proportion of their outstanding debt back.
 
In my view we will see another 30/40% drop in house prices in Ireland in the first 6 months of the new year,

If they do then there will be very good rental yields to be had and that will draw the investors back in. With interest rates dropping to low levels over the next few months I cant see property prices dropping that much.
 
If they do then there will be very good rental yields to be had and that will draw the investors back in.
Two problems I can see with that;
1. There is a huge oversupply of rental properties already. This is bound to impact rental yields.
2. Where will investors get the money? One of the reasons prices are dropping is because people can't get mortgages.
 
If they do then there will be very good rental yields to be had and that will draw the investors back in. With interest rates dropping to low levels over the next few months I cant see property prices dropping that much.

Rents will fall due to the increasing supply and contracting demand. Its the availability of credit that drives house prices more than interest rates.

The graphs in the attached link show that while Ireland is adjusting back to long term equilibrium it still has some way to go.
http://www.tradersnarrative.com/global-real-estate-ratios-show-extent-of-bubble-2066.html
 
And regardless of what they do with Interest Rates, the easy supply of money we have witnessed over the past 5 years will not reoccur.
 
another post full of silly people trying to predict the future . when people say "i think property will fall another 30 - 40%" , they are talking rubbish . no one knows what will happen.

and by the way if one of the banks goes to the wall as you put it then the irish govt will step in and take control of them. no bank is actually closing , all the banks that are failing in america are being run now by the FDIC. they are still open for business but just under a differnet name.

The trend is your friend as they say and its going one way for residential property. Down.

All booms that crash result in an undershooting of the 'true' average or 'fair' value of an asset, whether it be property or stocks.

Look at the last 3 UK crashes on this graph - http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/graphs-average-house-price.php

Everyone resulted in an undershooting of the mean. That is when property becomes cheap. No doubt Ireland has seen similar occurances in the past.

With a yield in the order of 3-4% (Dublin had the lowest yields in the world in 2006-07!) there is only one way for that yield to go. Up.

How is this going to occur? 2 ways either rents rise significantly or values fall significantly.

There is no real wage growth momentum to support rising rents and yield and therefore values will continue to slide.

There will be a long slow errosion of property prices across the western world until yields become overly attractive again (think 10-15%) then property will be a huge buy. It could take 3 years it could take 10.
 
another post full of silly people trying to predict the future . when people say "i think property will fall another 30 - 40%" , they are talking rubbish . no one knows what will happen.

and by the way if one of the banks goes to the wall as you put it then the irish govt will step in and take control of them. no bank is actually closing , all the banks that are failing in america are being run now by the FDIC. they are still open for business but just under a differnet name.

Limerickman, this thread is on the INVESTMENT forum. The nature of such is that people have a view or opinion (in silly mans language). Every investment is in some way trying to predict the future. Everybody is entiltled to one and thats what makes a market. Its the same as your obvious view that property will rise.

Oh, and by the way hope you dont cut your hand when you try to catch the falling knife !
 
I stand over my statement no Bank in the E.U. will go to the wall. By this I mean all deposit's are safe.
 
Two problems I can see with that;
1. There is a huge oversupply of rental properties already. This is bound to impact rental yields.
2. Where will investors get the money? One of the reasons prices are dropping is because people can't get mortgages.

Dublin suburbs are already seeing a 12-15% decrease in rents...
 
Great post on the current state of the property & stock market and how to value property. Its all about the yield.

[broken link removed]

When opportunity knocks
Sunday, October 26, 2008 By David McWilliams</SPAN>
The current market instability could create lucrative chances for those willing to take a risk.

Because of the panic that has gripped the markets, the next few months will probably be the most profitable opportunity to make money in this generation. But you’d hardly think so by listening to the mainstream commentary in Ireland.

Sometimes it’s difficult not to laugh at the type of advice that is being thrown around Dublin by so-called financial experts. For example, the same lads who were telling you last year that Irish property was ‘‘fundamentally’’ sound and would experience, at worst, a ‘‘soft landing’’ are now telling you that the world is ending.





Last year, these heads were telling you that AIB shares were a buy at €20.Today they are suggesting that AIB at €3.7 is a sell. God knows who pays these lads, or why. Nobody is suggesting that the background noise has not changed dramatically. Nor is anyone underestimating the risk involved in trying to stop the bottom of any market, but if we stand back a wee bit, we might gain that most valuable of insights - perspective.

The key thing to appreciate, is that all financial crises are temporary. They tend to blow over. People with debts and companies going into the crisis get hammered and those with cash prosper. The rout in asset prices becomes self-correcting.

Either markets exhaust themselves in a selling frenzy or they get pushed back by the heavy artillery of government intervention. Either way, the system rights itself at a different price and we start again.

We are now seeing huge falls, mainly because hedge funds are selling everything to meet their financial obligations. Their clients are demanding cash and, as a result, the funds have to sell everything they have.

At times like this, the selling becomes indiscriminate, which is why certain blue-chip companies - ones that will almost certainly survive the recession - are offering double-digit yields. Given that global interest rates are headed downwards rapidly, such companies must be a screaming buy.

But like everything in investing, you have to be diligent and, most of all, patient in your research. A crucial dynamic in all these episodes is that markets overshoot. In good times, as we’ve seen to our regret in the Irish property market, markets overshoot on the upside, bringing prices up to ludicrous levels.

In bad times, like now, the same process occurs and asset prices overshoot on the downside, bringing prices down to levels where the assets are at bargain basement prices. We are seeing this now in stock markets.

Unfortunately, this is not happening in the Irish housing market which, on any rational basis, is still wildly overvalued. Last year, this column ran a simple financial model for where fair value might be in the Irish housing market. This is back-of-the-envelope stuff, but bear with me. The price of any asset must be related to the amount of money the asset generates each year.

In the US, analysts claim that, in the long run, house prices should be equal to between 12 and 14 times earnings. This means that if a house is generating a rent of $10,000 a year, it must be worth between $120,000 and $140,000 a year.

Apply this test to Ireland. A quick search of Daft.ie will reveal, for example, that a three-bedroom house in Co Wicklow - advertised as an investment property - is on sale for €289,000.

The same website tells us that the average rent for a three-bed in Arklow is €850. So let us say that, in the best possible case, this place is rented for 11 profitable months a year - the final month’s rent goes on various costs. The implication from the American model is that the house is worth about €122,000.

The implication from this, compared to the advertised price of €289,000, is that the house is still wildly overvalued. The Irish calculation means that the house is trading at 31 times its annual yield. This clearly needs to fall dramatically by close to 60 per cent for it to make any financial sense to buy.

So one of the factors impinging on Ireland’s recovery is that we have to see house prices fall dramatically for any investor in their right mind to get back into the market. As long as estate agents, banks and builders are in denial about where prices need to go, we will not have a platform for any recovery.

So property investment is out, but let’s go back to the stock markets. The question is whether we are near the bottom? In Ireland, the bottom might take a few more months to materialise because we are caught in a bad debt brace.

Going into the crisis we were the most indebted population in the world. More worrying, practically all of that personal debt had been taken on since 2000, so not only were we indebted but we were newly indebted. Finally, practically all of that debt was property-related.

At this stage - for heavily indebted players - it hardly matters now what happens to interest rates. Sure, a few decreases will help, but the employment situation is of much more consequence for mortgage holders. Unfortunately, unemployment in this country is likely to rise substantially in the coming months and years because so much of our recent job increases were generated by the domestic service sector and the construction sector.

Rising unemployment will prompt industrial-scale mortgage defaults in Ireland and the defaulting process will follow the same pattern we have seen in the US. We are likely to experience what could be described as ‘‘shunting defaults’’, as people’s defaults shunt on from one loan to another. This means that we will also witness large-scale credit card default, many thousands of car loans will never be paid and home loans will similarly be reneged on.

This will lead to house prices tumbling in a delayed reaction. However, this is probably the point at which the Irish stock market will begin to rally.

For the brave, for those who understand the dynamic of markets, this week’s panic should be the signal to begin the process of thinking about investing again. The lessons from history are that turbulent times pass and also present the buying opportunity of a generation.

www.davidmcwilliams.ie
 
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