The term "Non National"

Havealaugh said:
Rainyday


OP's location is Dublin (Broadbandken) so by him using the term Non-National I know he is talking about a person not from THIS nation i.e. Ireland.

I guess it could be considered misleading if we didn't know where the OP was from.
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Unless your all-important THIS gets included in the term (e.g. non-THIS-nationality), it is still completely misleading.

stir crazy said:
I think its possibly a sign of low self esteem or being excessively judgemental (judging others for use of such normal language) to have a problem with any factual description. Language is meaning dependent, full of quirks everywhere and isnt machine code.
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The problem is that non-national is NOT a factual description. I don't know anyone who does not have a nationality.
stir crazy said:
Do people who have a problem with words like foreign or guest really have a problem with foreigners or guests so much that they cant handle the concept of somebody being foreign or a guest ? It irks me when during a apparently innocent post , someone diverts the issue away to one of language used without giving any substantial example other than speculation of how this is a problem.
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Using the word 'guest' for someone who lives and works here is at best misleading and at worst dangerous. It implies temporary residence. It implies being under an obligation to or control of someone else. It implies a lack of independence.
 
RainyDay said:
What does non-national mean? I've never met anyone with no nationality. But perhaps you can clarify if you are proposing that workers from some countries should be treated differently?
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I find your posts to be misleading, for example pretending you dont know what 'non national' means. In this way, you have highlighted nothing else but your own prejudices and biased assumptions.


RainyDay said:
The problem is that non-national is NOT a factual description. I don't know anyone who does not have a nationality.
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Again you refuse to accept how the phrase is used. It is used with the word 'of' as I have explained earlier in this thread or like all words given meaning within context. Its' meaningless to take any word out of context. You are doing the equivalent of taking the word 'the' or 'a' without any other words attached.



RainyDay said:
Using the word 'guest' for someone who lives and works here is at best misleading and at worst dangerous. It implies temporary residence. It implies being under an obligation to or control of someone else. It implies a lack of independence.
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Very few people in this state are not under an obligation to someone else. Most of us are under various obligations to our employers, to pay taxes, to our families, and perhaps the community and wider society and of course all of are obligated to obey the law.
Foreign workers are always free to return to their original homes if they so wish and they freely choose to come here so I dont see how anyone who is invited to this country lacks independence or freedom. Whenever I have lived and worked abroad I have seen myself as a guest in a country with a different culture to my own and understood that citizenship and residency is not a right but a privilege to thankful for. I have never felt that I had a right to dictate to my host country the terms under which I have been invited whether this was in the EU or in the USA. I have always been conscious of the desire to be a well behaved guest and give a good impression of Irish people abroad. I have no problem with being described as a guest anywhere I go. A guest is by definition invited to the party and is actually someone who is desired unlike someone who might have been born at the party who nobody choose to be there.

Yet again you continue to highlight your own prejudices and biased assumptions assuming that half a sentence informs us about your whole prayerbook. It is up to the individual to imply something if they so wish based upon their own beliefs or are you using this thread to establish your ' immigration credentials' in some way ?
 
A Russian friend of mone arrived here to work (with me) c. 2000 and thought it was hilarious when he queued up at Harcourt Street to receive his papers which described him as an "alien". I was thinking The Third Man and Casablanca while he was thinking ET.

For the record I consider the term "non-national" to be meaningless and habitual lazy shorthand (in this country in various circles) for "non Irish national".
 
stir crazy said:
I find your posts to be misleading, for example pretending you dont know what 'non national' means.
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Do you read the replies to question which you have already posed?
RainyDay said:
I guess that most posters will have picked up the fact that I was highlighting the offensive and inaccurate nature of the term 'non-national', which has regrettably drifted into common usage.
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diarmuidc said:
Do you read the replies to question which you have already posed?
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I read every single word. And I stand by what I said. Its' arrogant to assume everybody knows what Rainyday was writing about. Rainyday assumes everyone knows what Rainyday is writing about which is wrong and then proceeds to lecture us on the use of misleading language which is hypocritical and could be seen by some as snobbery.

Havealaugh said:
Non-national means not from this nation, it doesn't mean they don't have a nationality :p
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Above you can see at least one person felt it necessary to answer the question or was misled into answering it.




I'm not trying to offend anyone. Just my opinion. Hope you can take it. I believe in equality of explanations when language is used. This is much saner and fairer than the nonsensical, snobbish overly pc approach as my approach includes everyone, especially those who dont know things in advance and does not stand in judgement over others who are 'out of the loop'. This thread is fun . keep it coming :)
 
I don't think there is an element of snobbishness or an overly PC approach in the thread. Not everyone interprets these phrases the same as you, stir crazy, it's a subjective thing. You may have been happy to be known as a guest in other countries but I would not be comfortable using 'guest' when referring to someone who has been here for years or intends to stay for the forseeable future. The word implies (to me) that they are going to go away again and I would prefer to leave that implication out. That is not being PC.
Likewise, 'foreigner' implies to me someone who is totally foreign in every way and who I will never have anything in common with. This is why I prefer foreign national. Again, not PC just my preference of expression based on my subject interpretation of the words. I don't really understand why you bring phrases like snobbishness and PC into this.
 
RainyDay said:
The problem is that non-national is NOT a factual description. I don't know anyone who does not have a nationality.
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Palestinians perhaps?

stir crazy said:
Foreign workers are always free to return to their original homes if they so wish and they freely choose to come here so I dont see how anyone who is invited to this country lacks independence or freedom. Whenever I have lived and worked abroad I have seen myself as a guest in a country with a different culture to my own and understood that citizenship and residency is not a right but a privilege to thankful for.
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But non-Irish EU citizens do have residency rights here. Granted they are not absolute rights, but are pretty strong rights all the same. Therefore to call such people, who are living and working long term here, "guests" is misleading and offensive. By paying their taxes they are contributing to society and no longer just "guests".
 
when I was enquiring about purchasing an apartment in Turkey two years ago the term used to describe non Turkish citizens was foreigner ie a foreigner may own property. etc. I never took it to be offensive.
 
I think the fact that the term is in common use and the PC brigade aren't bombarding the airwaves and other media outlets with their objections answers any questions about it's offensiveness.
 
I also find the term "PC brigade" to be offensive as the phrase "Political correctness" is almost always used in a perjorative sence.

On the subject of the word "foreigner". I would never use the word to describe someone from England, Scotland or Wales.
 
ajapale said:
almost always used in a perjorative sence.
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and for good reason, I think most reasonable people would agree. Why create a problem where one doesn't exist? For example we aren't supposed to use the phrase 'black economy' any more in case it's offensive to black people working in the illegal economy. Where does it end?
 
ajapale said:
Ive never hear anyone object to the term "black economy".
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I've never heard anyone having a problem with being described as a guest.

The word 'guest' is one of the friendliest most wholesome words in the dictionary in my view. A guest is somebody who is by definition invited and welcome. A guest is supposed to feel loved. The word is almost the complete opposite of intruder. Anyone who has a problem with such language is in my view neurotic. I'm sorry but it just had to be said.
 
annR said:
Not everyone interprets these phrases the same as you, stir crazy, it's a subjective thing. .... I don't really understand why you bring phrases like snobbishness and PC into this.
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I never prejudge a situation out of context with the snobby idea that my way of viewing the world is the only way which is how this thread got started. An innocent and friendly word like 'guest' was used as an excuse to hijack and eventually split a thread, begin a pc rant and perhaps show off the 'immigration credentials' of some while having the rest of us wearing hair shirts and lashing ourselves for all our language sins.


Persius said:
But non-Irish EU citizens do have residency rights here. Granted they are not absolute rights, but are pretty strong rights all the same. Therefore to call such people, who are living and working long term here, "guests" is misleading and offensive. By paying their taxes they are contributing to society and no longer just "guests".
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I never claimed that one word describes anyone or any situation in its entirety. Unlike the 'pc set' who wish to neurotically tag on a series of cringing apologies and explanations to every word and sentence in common usage. If the extremists of the 'pc set' had their way, language would become both unworkable and impractical and making a point would take longer than anyone has patience.
As far as misleading and offensive goes, I refer to my previous post and the definition of guest which when applied to anybody is an opposite to the concept of an unwelcome intruder.



ajapale said:
I also find the term "PC brigade" to be offensive as the phrase "Political correctness" is almost always used in a perjorative sence.
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For those who promote "Political correctness" to lack pride in the label is both ironic and funny.

ajapale said:
On the subject of the word "foreigner". I would never use the word to describe someone from England, Scotland or Wales.
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Anyone not entitled to citizenship of this country is a foreigner whether those of a pc persuasion like it or not. I find such things as singing the british national anthem and royal watching as extremely foreign and I think the majority of our citizens and residents in fact actually feel the same way.
 
ajapale said:
I dont regard Northern Irish Unionists as foreigners.
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People either dont understand the issue properly or are not paying attention.

Northern Ireland Unionists as a group are generally entitled to citizenship under the terms of our constitution hence I would not have described them as foreigners in any previous post . Whether you are a unionist yourself or wish to join them singing god save the queen, wear a poppy or join the orange order (which is definitely non pc)... etc is entirely your own business ajapale and very few people would care either way.
 
stir crazy said:
I've never heard anyone having a problem with being described as a guest.

The word 'guest' is one of the friendliest most wholesome words in the dictionary in my view. A guest is somebody who is by definition invited and welcome. A guest is supposed to feel loved. The word is almost the complete opposite of intruder. Anyone who has a problem with such language is in my view neurotic. I'm sorry but it just had to be said.
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Do you accept that the word 'guest' implies a temporary visit, at the discretion or under the control of a host, as opposed to independent, permanent residency?

stir crazy said:
I never prejudge a situation out of context with the snobby idea that my way of viewing the world is the only way which is how this thread got started. An innocent and friendly word like 'guest' was used as an excuse to hijack and eventually split a thread, begin a pc rant and perhaps show off the 'immigration credentials' of some while having the rest of us wearing hair shirts and lashing ourselves for all our language sins.
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Not true - this thread started around use of the term non-national. The 'guest' issue came later on.

It is quite funny to hear you complaining about rants and then going off on 'hair shirts and lashing ourselves'. I only see one poster ranting in this thread.
 
RainyDay said:
Do you accept that the word 'guest' implies a temporary visit, at the discretion or under the control of a host, as opposed to independent, permanent residency?
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As I said before, well done for establishing your 'immigration credentials' Rainyday. In my opinion you only address those of my points which make yourself look good. Are you using language to advocate an open door immigration policy ? I have no idea which policy works best but I'm just curious. Perhaps those who know better like yourself could teach me something ?
I dont know why you have a problem with those applying for citizenship being guests until they obtain citizenship. Or do you think citizenship is something worthless we should give everybody without any kind of vetting procedure or waiting period. How do you treat guests in your own home ? Should invited guests fear to appear at your door ?

RainyDay said:
Not true - this thread started around use of the term non-national. The 'guest' issue came later on.

It is quite funny to hear you complaining about rants and then going off on 'hair shirts and lashing ourselves'. I only see one poster ranting in this thread.
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The 'guest issue' is a non issue.
Picking on the language of someone with an idea is a sly way to silence that idea. Every post of mine was in response to a question. The vast majority dealt with old ideas. If you have a problem with imagery; which I think suitable and appropriate for the particular case; such as 'hair shirt' then tough. :)


I completely disagree with this remark which is an unnecessary distraction from the issues of ,

1) hijacking an issue about a bus strike into a worthless debate about words which in my opinion only a tiny minority of neurotics with nothing better to do would find a problem with. As I said before; picking on the language of someone expressing a valid idea without acknowledging the validity of that idea is a sly way to silence that idea.

2) Your choice to see ambiguity where none exists and also to interpret this perceived ambiguity the negative way. You complain about ambiguity yet I have shown conclusively in this thread that you have no problem misleading others when it suits you. Most people in this thread dont know what the fuss is about.

Sorry is this offends anyone . Just my opinion.
 
stir crazy said:
Are you using language to advocate an open door immigration policy ?
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not going to be provoked into denials by your posts.
stir crazy said:
I dont know why you have a problem with those applying for citizenship being guests until they obtain citizenship.
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Why would you assume that the 'guests' are applying for citizenship?

stir crazy said:
Or do you think citizenship is something worthless we should give everybody without any kind of vetting procedure or waiting period.
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See first answer above.
 
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