Reporting suspected tenancies to the PRTB

Want to guage opinion on this - I suspect the answer is going to be report them. That's what I'm inclined to do anyway. But maybe not as a full frontal assault might have unforeseen negative consequences on the development like good neighbours moving out or maintenance fees not being paid promptly.

I live in a small apartment scheme (less than 20 apartments). Most of the apartments are rented out. I came across this Public Register of Tenancies. I know who owns each apartment as I'm on the management co committee. Some of the apartments are registered but 8 of the apartments that I know have tenants in them are not on the register. I doubt that most of them have exemptions from registration.

Be careful here. You have data in your care about who owns what in this development, I would check carefully that I was not in breach of the data protection act before passing this data to a third party.

Sure, these apartments should be registered, but this may not be the way to do it. If you are on the management company committee, could you not introduce a ruling that all rented apartments should be on the register, and that anyone defaulting on that would then be reported? Many of the defaulters, I would suspect, have simply forgotten to do so or are unaware of their responsibilities, and a simple jog of the memory like this will probably sort out most of the problem.

I agree with auto320.

You should certainly use this data only for the purpose it was collected for.

It is also quite possible that the landlords of the properties will realise that suddenly they're all getting letters from the PRTB. They'll probably be able to collectively deduce what happened.

Agree 100% with auto320.

Registering with the PRTB shouldn't be a witch hunt.

I take the point about data privacy although its something that one could easily form a suspicion on by observing the changeover in residents and comparison with the PRTB list.

Good idea about making it a rule that rented apartments be on the register.

I wondered how many of them also aren't declaring to the revenue. Most of the apartments are owned by a couple of investers and some of this group are declared and others aren't.

I would suspect that most landlords now pay their taxes; it is far too risky not to, and tax breaks are much better now than they were when the balck economy was at its height.

Again, I would stress that the best way to deal with this is to have the Management Company insist that all landlords be registered. This wil give a strong signal to any defaulters regarding revenue responsibilities. Any landlord who is regstered will most likely not risk avoiding his taxes.

Don't get too worked up about these kinds of issues, they can become an obsession! Just deal with it through the management company and move on. Not a good idea to become a one-man crimefighter, you don't know what kind of baddies own such properties. Let the system take care of them.

GeneralZod said:

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Good idea about making it a rule that rented apartments be on the register.

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Can this be enforced? On what basis?

The last time I checked the registry I was still not in there despite being registered for 6 months. I would not rely on those files to be up to date. I would be very surprised if they were not registered to be honest and as stated I dont think you should use your position to make these checks. Why not just contact the PRTB and ask how up to date this information is ?

SPC100 said:

I think there are lots of "new" smalltime amateur landlords in the country.
I would suspect lots of them are not using accountants, not researching their tax liabilities and not worrying too much about their tax returns, with whitewash statments like well my mortgage equals my rent, so there is no need.

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I also suspect, going by some of the posts here on AAM, that some simply don't have a clue about their responsibilities and liabilities! Not saying that that's any excuse but there does seem to be a certain tendancy on the part of some to plunge into "bricks and mortar" without any research of understanding.

I'm renting a place at the moment that doesn't appear on the list,the landlord is a lovely man not the slightest bit "dodgy".I presume he just isn't aware of his "responsibilities".I'll be claiming rent relief when i move on though !.

thewatcher said:

I'm renting a place at the moment that doesn't appear on the list,the landlord is a lovely man not the slightest bit "dodgy".I presume he just isn't aware of his "responsibilities".I'll be claiming rent relief when i move on though !.

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If he's such a lovely man, be nice and make him aware of his responsibilities rather than just landing him in hot water! You should know if the place is registered because each tenancy must be registered and you would have had to sign a PRTB form and provide your PPSN (not all registered properties appear, or appear identifiably, in the register, which as published online is in any case a snapshot only).

Revenue has got very good at cross referencing rent relief with the registered property owners. Having provided my tenants with the Revenue rent relief form when they moved in, Revenue promptly on receipt of that sent me a decidedly snotty "explain yourself or we'll come inspect you" letter. [All was entirely above-board: it was the first year it had been rented, ergo no tax return was yet due. Yes, in accordance with the AAM mantra, I do believe in paying my taxes - and registering with the dratted PRTB, even though the primary legislation is so drafted as to ensure the process is entirely paper-based, cumbersome and cannot be made simple and painless without a new Act. Grr. Oh yeah, and they have severe backlogs, largely because of the foregoing.]

Speaking as an amateur landlord, I agree that the bulk of amateur landlords haven't a breeze what they're doing and are investing because "You can't go wrong with property." I wouldn't be at all surprised to see quite a number of them making tax-defaulters lists for very large sums (mostly interest and penalties) over the next few years.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see quite a number of them making tax-defaulters lists for very large sums (mostly interest and penalties) over the next few years.

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Yes, that is probably what will happen. The revenue will deliberately wait a few years before cashing in. They will then be able to add fines and interest etc. A good way to double your money.

GeneralZod said:

Want to guage opinion on this - I suspect the answer is going to be report them. That's what I'm inclined to do anyway. But maybe not as a full frontal assault might have unforeseen negative consequences on the development like good neighbours moving out or maintenance fees not being paid promptly.

I live in a small apartment scheme (less than 20 apartments). Most of the apartments are rented out. I came across this Public Register of Tenancies. I know who owns each apartment as I'm on the management co committee. Some of the apartments are registered but 8 of the apartments that I know have tenants in them are not on the register. I doubt that most of them have exemptions from registration.

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Why would you do this? What makes you feel it's necessary for you to report them. When did people need to start fearing their neighbours would report them to the authorities. When did we become such a nation of begrudgers that we feel it necessary to phone the taxman if someone isn't doing what we feel they should. Live and let live I say. If you wish to be on the register that's your prerogative but Mind your own business when it comes to others.
If you see a plumber coming in to do some work will you ring the taxman to make sure he's not doing a nixer?

goodtiming said:

If you wish to be on the register that's your prerogative

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Registration with the PRTB is not a prerogative/choice - it is a legal obligation for most landlords. I'm not making a value judgement either way on the original issue but just wish to correct this mistaken assertion.

goodtiming said:

Why would you do this? What makes you feel it's necessary for you to report them. When did people need to start fearing their neighbours would report them to the authorities. When did we become such a nation of begrudgers that we feel it necessary to phone the taxman if someone isn't doing what we feel they should. Live and let live I say. If you wish to be on the register that's your prerogative but Mind your own business when it comes to others.
If you see a plumber coming in to do some work will you ring the taxman to make sure he's not doing a nixer?

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I actually agree with the sentiments of this post.

goodtiming said:

Why would you do this? What makes you feel it's necessary for you to report them. When did people need to start fearing their neighbours would report them to the authorities. When did we become such a nation of begrudgers that we feel it necessary to phone the taxman if someone isn't doing what we feel they should. Live and let live I say. If you wish to be on the register that's your prerogative but Mind your own business when it comes to others.
If you see a plumber coming in to do some work will you ring the taxman to make sure he's not doing a nixer?

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jem said:

I actually agree with the sentiments of this post.

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It's now begrudgery to resent someone flouting the law? Begrudgery to resent someone not taking their social responsibilities seriously and possibly abusing their tenants rights?

I've made my position clear on the OPs suggestion earlier but this post is absolute nonsense. If I saw someone robbing an old woman on O'Connell St it'd hardly be begrudgery to phone the Guards and maybe give the old woman a helping hand. What am I supposed to be doing in New Ireland, give the thief the big thumbs up and applaud his ingenuity? There goes another up and coming entrepreneur, fair play to him.

Folks lets try and keep this to facts etc.

Allegations and ranting about begrudgery can be taken to Letting Off Steam.

Howitzer said:

It's now begrudgery to resent someone flouting the law? Begrudgery to resent someone not taking their social responsibilities seriously and possibly abusing their tenants rights?

I've made my position clear on the OPs suggestion earlier but this post is absolute nonsense. If I saw someone robbing an old woman on O'Connell St it'd hardly be begrudgery to phone the Guards and maybe give the old woman a helping hand. What am I supposed to be be doing in New Ireland, give the thief the big thumbs up and applaud his ingenuity? There goes another up and coming entrepreneur, fair play to him.

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I would sugest that the two items are completly different.
You know that the person is robbing the old woman, you have no such definite knowledge with regard to the flat.How do you know the owner is not" taking their social responsibilities seriously" what ever that means- you dont, full stop, likewise how do you know the owner "is abusing their tenants rights"The owner could be the best landlord in teh world for all you know.
I would sugest that you and the op should mind your own business unless you have definit 100% proof that someone is breaking the law.

jem said:

I would sugest that the two items are completly different.
You know that the person is robbing the old woman, you have no such definite knowledge with regard to the flat.How do you know the owner is not" taking their social responsibilities seriously" what ever that means- you dont, full stop, likewise how do you know the owner "is abusing their tenants rights"The owner could be the best landlord in teh world for all you know.
I would sugest that you and the op should mind your own business unless you have definit 100% proof that someone is breaking the law.

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By not registering their tenancy the landlord is breaking the law. Full Stop.

Tenancies falling within the scope of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 must be registered with the Private Residential Tenancies Board. It is the responsibility of the landlord to register the details with the Board. Both the landlord and the tenants are entitled to a copy of their details entered on the register

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This is taken from the first page of the PRTB site. My highlight.

I said possibly abusing the tenants rights. If a tenancy is not registered with the PRTB their rights under Residential Tenancies Act 2004 are not protected.

I already stated in the thread that I completely disagreed with what the OP was suggesting.

I believe the last couple of posts aren't ranting and are relevant to the thread as there is a question of legality in terms of having to register with the PRTB which many people aren't aware of. Ensuring people are aware of a law and it's enforcement is not begrudgery.

Why should some pay tax and not others...why should some register and not others? The registers are very slow to be updated as far as i can see though and he may be registered. Also i would not recommend going up to him and kindly informing him of his obligations. it has been well documented and reported what a landlords obligations are.